Talk:EuroMayDay

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Contents 1 No, i am afraid it is not right any more 2 Cleanup // new section 3 RFC 4 Ok, or much better, as it is right now: 26.05.06 5 Tokyo May Day removed 6 Convoluted article start 7 attempted to make sense...

[edit] No, i am afraid it is not right any more

Hi again... it looks like ppl keep changing the entry... and it is definitely not right the way it is right now (01.07.06)... What does the Euro sign mean? And again the connections to nazism are absolutely absurd and provocative. Has any European initiative to be eurocentric? Not necesarily... In any case, if some ppl - who by the way? i thougth this space should present objective knowledge, and that shouldn´t allow for "some ppl´s" opinions... - it wouldn´t be a central issue at all...

And then again, quoting selected lines from a single person, Alex Foti, on and on, doesn´t seem right, as May Day is a wide network integrating rich and diverse views and practices. This seems to me like an issue between political factions (?) and not a wikpedia piece...

Can we just tag the article as a contested story...? It makes me feel rather bad to have a space like this, trying hard to be constructive, being continuously misused...

Best, osfa, maydaysur

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clearly NPOV

i think it would be ok to change the euro sign back to the original spelling, since there was no consent here on the talk page to use the euro sign and delete the redirection of the article

--Ferdl 00:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Cleanup // new section

Is the current layout (opening section on the day itself with another on allegations of Eurocentrism) acceptable? Have also made some changes to try and clean up the article by removing links in the article itself and adding them to the external links section at the bottom. --Black Butterfly 13:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

Have put up an RFC, hopefully we can get this resolved. --Black Butterfly 13:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ok, or much better, as it is right now: 26.05.06

Hi, i am not familiar with the wikipedia editors community- i use wikipedia.org, however, on a daly basis - thanks very much for all the great work. I participated in the Euromayday movement (Sevilla 2005 and 2006) and have participated in the European process since 2004. I sent some comments to the wikipedia e-mail contact address, some weeks ago, concerning some, imho, biased ideas in the former entry for euromayday. At the time, I got a very polite answer asking us either to edit it or to participate in this space, which i haven´t been able to do until now.

There is defintely no connection between euromayday and white suprematism or neofascist ideas; that was a rather absurd idea,- in fact, i thought it was some kind of funky hack -. Quite on the contrary, euromayday, at least as participants in Sevilla are building it, - and i believe the European networks do share this conception -, is a global solidarity and antitotalitarian-anticapitalist movement. In our demands (Sevilla) for this year one of the main points was: "Social rights and freedom of movement for all". I would say that the way we try to organize the movement is as a radical, open, networked democracy. Among our community there are lots of groups working in global issues, borders and migrant rights.

In my opinion, again, the entry right know is much more objetive and clear. Thanks.

osfa(at)wewearbuildings.cc

Other links that could be added:

Euro May Day Sur (Sevilla): http://maydaysur.org Euro May Day Sur (Sevilla) process: http://estrecho.indymedia.org/?category=maydaysur

I have developed the page some more, restoring some of the material you deleted. It would appear that your editing failed to really grasped the aspect of Euromayday being discussed, perhaps due to unfamiliarity with such issues as geopolitics. As people have objected to the issue about eurocentrism being included, referenced citations were added, perhaps making it read a bit clumsy. When people revive terms such as Neuropathis should be noted. Certainly the discussion about the relationship between racism and eurocentrism has been progressing in the USA and across the British Isles for many years. Perhaps activists in Sevilla are unaware of this? The changes you have made simply turn the entry into a piece of advertising. You have not engaged with the political points about Eurocentrism, and seem unaware of its relationship to racism and White Supremacism. Reviewing the piece, I think the discussion of the penetration of New Right thinking into modern activism should be dealt with differently, probably on a different page. But clearly Euromayday is a particularly vivid example of this.Harrypotter 11:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

In any sources I've found (such as this Indymedia UK post) the term Neuropa has been used but not approvingly, rather, to signify the new neoliberal Europe as it is today. I hardly see how this can be taken to signify Eurocentrism or racism.

You have yet to demonstrate anything other than European activists taking on issues that effect themselves in everyday life; this is not Eurocentrism, it is simply common sense and does not reflect racial superiority.

In short the evidence for this (extremely serious) accusation simply does not stand and so I do not feel it has a place here. --Black Butterfly 17:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Please just imagine that you were sitting somewhere in Europe, thinking about Mayday, a day traditionally when workers of the world come together in solidarity, in recognition of the interconnectedness of their struggles. And also imagine that you have family, friends and comrades who live outside Europe who you know will be celebrating Mayday. Imagine that you speak a non Europena language. And then imagine you have someone coming along spouting about Euromayday, that you should prioritise the links which these people have drawn up with others across Europe in preference to those links you already have with Brothers and Sisters outside Europe. Imagine that all your life you have been treated as a second or third class citizen, that your concerns have always been marginalised, and that there has been a continual stream of people asking you to focus on European History, European languages and now European activism. Imagine that the peopel who are subjecting you to this racial discrimination are posing as anti-racist activists. Imagine how you would feel about those people who are setting up institutional racism in the anti-capitalist movement to marginalise you from a movement which you have been involved with so long . . . Then imagine reading the post above about European (White?) activists only taking on issues which effect themselves in their everyday life, that this is "common sense" (i.e. the ideas of the ruling class) and that you are being told that anything you say just does not stand up because the person responding cannot imagine a person for whom the world outside Europe is an abstraction, cannot imagine a person whose mother lives outside Europe, cannot imagine a person who has been driven into exile, but still has comrades struggling in countries outside Europe, i.e cannot imagine someone who is not a "European activist", does not want to be assimlated to the N/european identity and finds the imposition of the Euromayday precisely on the day when workers of the world come together as another attack of the generalised white supremacy which is visible everyday, but here focussed to disrupt and limit solidarity with those outside Europe. Inagine all that, please, and then perhaps you will start tosee exactly how serious a situation we are in.Harrypotter 22:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Bollocks.

EuroMayDay has been linked repeatedly with anti-racist, no borders type actions; no effort was made to exclude those of different nationalities, ethnicities, etc. I never said European activists should *only* take on issues which affect them directly, only that it makes sense for that to be one focus and a move away from the patronising third-worldism that infects a lot of liberal activism. Nor was EuroMayDay "imposed" - plenty of actions took place simultaneously in most major cities.

This is all moving away from the point of this discussion however in that we're essentially talking about analysis - mine is that EuroMayDay isn't racist, yours is that it is. Wikipedia is not the place for such a discussion and unless there are verifiable FACTS and SOURCES which can show anything more than a vague European arrogance on the part of a couple of the organisers, I don't see any reason to give it any more than a passing reference. --Black Butterfly 08:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Euromayday????? what happened to WORKERS OF THE WORLD!!!??? The groups involved are all bourgeois pseudo-anarchist Bakuninist cults !!! this is clearly a eurocentric, elitest and racist construct and should be written up as such!! Paki.tv 13:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Please look through the article as it now stands.

a) It uses the term eurocentric - what better fitting term to describe euromayday.

b) It involves groups from Western Europe . . . how true!

c) Focus on "the European geopolitical entity." This is illustrated with refrences to Foti and mixed bag of Italian activists organising a conference in June. This specifically bears out - through the quote "our political space is Europe" a focus on Europe as a geopolitical entity. These are verifiable facts and the sources have been supplied. It is clear that we are not talking about having different analyses. It is clear that we have different points of view. As the discussion about whether you view eurocentrism as racist can be developed on the relevant page. This makes the inclusion of precisely the points raised very useful. As reagrds their so-called "anti-racist activities", please recall that both the US and British Armies lost enormous casualties in the struggle to overthrow Nazi Germany. This does not in any way make them any less racist themselves, nor negate their function as defenders of imperialism. The fact that a political group may make a great deal about "anti-racism", failure to engage with broader discussions about what racism is, may mean the group is only paying lip-service to the issue. We have seen this with New Labour for instance.Harrypotter 19:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tokyo May Day removed

I have removed Tokyo reference. Although there have been people in Tokyo who have participated in so-called precariat activity, there is no evidence that they participated in Euro mayday.Harrypotter 21:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry correction, there was a meeting in Paris at the Palais de Tokyo!!!Harrypotter 21:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

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perhaps you should be a little bit more serious regarding your changes in articles. of course there have been actions referring to the euromayday in tokyo in 2006. use google and you will see that.

--213.47.122.133 23:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Convoluted article start

The first chapter of the article is, like so many things, really in need of a raze and a rebuild. Read it, it's fragmented and makes no sense.

my question to you, who are calling euromayday eurocentric:

EuroMayDay network prefers europe as a political space of conflict instead of the nation-state. They are not "eurocentric" at all! Do you call latin american social movements "latinocentric" then? or is IWW "america-centric"?

the IWW does not use the word Amerikkka or even America in its title - its the Industrial Workers of the World - and while it may well be centred in practice to the English speaking parts of the US, it is not so theoretically restrictive as 'Euro-Mayday' which takes the international Mayday movement and begins to restrict it to a European geographical / racial / ecomomical/ social outlook in both its theoretical and practical organisational form!!! Paki.tv 22:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think "euro" in EuroMayDay is meant to be "theoretically restrictive": instead it is only honest to say that it is about europe-wide, not global, political process. Many parts of the traditional workers movement are making demands to national governments. At least in Europe this has been the situation. In fact MayDay has probably been much more restrictive before the transnational Euromayday process which is connecting groups across the borders. I'm sure that american and latin american social movements and may day parades are also addressing social issues on regional or national level, and are building transnational processes on their continent. But they are not being called "nationalist" or whatever-centric. Also, I think the article should include something about migrants rights and freedom of movement as the central demands of Euromayday.

• Again, this is nothing to do with latin america or america - but eurocentricity, hence the label "eurocentric anti-capitalist groups" Paki.tv 13:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The other user (it appears) was pointing out that movements in other countries (e.g. the Zapatistas) are able to address and focus attention on issues which affect them in their own lives and their own areas - IN A GLOBAL CONTEXT - without being accused of ethnocentrism or nationalism, something which you seem unwilling to even consider with respect to EuroMayDay. --Black Butterfly 15:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

This does not explain the 'Euro' prefix to the root word of Mayday - And despite whatever criticisms we may have of the Zapatistas Sixth Declaration, they have never called themselves the Mexican Zapatista or the American Zapatista - unless you are referring to the West Essex Zapatistas, who again have not refered to any federal, imperial, national or racial construct and is in any case a different situation altogether. Paki.tv 16:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

There's no point in getting into petty linguistics. The Euro bit simply denotes a focus on European issues (as a COMPLEMENT, not REPLACEMENT, for international workers' struggle), in much the same way as the Zapatistas focus primarily on the struggle of the indigenous people of Chiapas - as has been their stated role since they began - as part of the global anti-capitalist movement. --Black Butterfly 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

What an obnoxious comment! i do not see linguistics as petty!! and as a British citizen of non-European ancestry i find the Euromayday construct to be racist and exlusionary . furthermore, the timing of this project - just after the Euro becomes a common currency - clearly makes the whole thing an imperialist propoganda!! now that may be my POV - but the linguistics are clearly NPOV Paki.tv 16:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm quite an obnoxious person. Sorry if you find that irritating.

The linguistics are petty because the simple presence of "Euro" does not in itself represent any form of racism or ideology. It signifies that the events are being co-ordinated across Europe.

This discussion is yet again being derailed into an attempt to argue the "truth" - which is not the role of Wikipedia. We need to be getting info from reliable sources and describing them.

So far your arguments have consisted of: some Italian making comments about welfare provision in Europe compared to the rest of the world; organisation on a cross-European basis; use of the word "Neuropa", also used by the Nazis, to describe precarity; and perhaps a few others (I can't be bothered to read through all this again). While these may be enough to warrant a section on accusations of Eurocentrism, they are in no way significant enough to have the entire article attack the event as a crypto-fascist plot. --Black Butterfly 14:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• It's not irritating, but it is dangerous - you are consistently making false statements and trying to present your own POV and the propoganda of the promoters themselves as fact, thereby misrepresenting anti-capitalist movements and the EuroMayday construct. I have made no comments about any Italian activists, fascists or 'Neuropa' - all i have written is that it is just a handful of anti-capitalists in West Europe who are promoting Euromayday. What's your problem with that? Paki.tv 13:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] attempted to make sense...

have edited the article to remove unsourced and untrue statements identifying Euromayday with neo-fascism and racism. if a reliable source for these can be found go right ahead, but I'm doubtful...

have been unable to find souces for some of what I put in so anyone who could help with that would be much appreciated. while I think they're bollocks, having a source for the racist accusation (ideally with a response from someone involved) would be useful.

the use of "Neuropa" did interest me, however; I can only assume it to be either a coincidence or a deliberate attempt to conflate flexploitation and the European single market with the Nazi vision. --Black Butterfly 18:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this is much better written and deals with the doubts you raised.Harrypotter 23:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The updated version is essentially the same as the one I changed, albeit a bit wordier. Let's go through some specifics:

• "eurocentric anti-capitalist groups" - POV term without any reference (ditto for the end of that paragraph)
• "has invited comparisons with the emergence of fascism from syndicalism" - same as above, no source given from any reputable figure
• the bit on fascist and anarchist intersection is largely unsourced (I'll concede the Eurasia Party issue and Cercle Proudhon - although both are given without context (and what do the WOMBLES have to do with this?))

That's bout it for now. External research on Euromayday via the web turns up few to no sources for Euromayday as anything other than an attempt to look at issues in a European context while retaining the global picture. --Black Butterfly 14:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Its good to see editors making an effort to clean up this article. I agree with Black Butterfly on the need for external references and I have a few things to add about keeping this article in line with Wikipedia:Manual of Style..

The phrases "some accuse" and "has invited comparisons" are Weasel words which, according to WP style guidelines, are to be avoided in Wikipedia. We need to change these sentences to say who is doing the accusing and who is inviting comparisons and then add citations to those sources as BB has suggested.

Secondly, the last four sentences of the second paragraph do not clearly tie in with the rest of the article:

Whilst the promotion of migration issues may appear to make such right wing connotations seem inappropriate to this form of Europeanism, much of the New Right has moved away from largely discredited biological racism. In fact the neo Nazi Jean-François Thiriart, who founded Jeune Europe inthe 1960s, suggested that his European Nationalism would become a left wing movement. This follows the Eurasia Party infiltration of Peoples Global Action (with whom Euromayday groups like the WOMBLES are involved) and Foti's suggestion that the discourse about precarity is "post-class". This compares with the proto-fascist trajectory of Georges Sorel and the Cercle Proudhon.

While these sentences may accurately outline developments in European neo-fascism and its relationship with the left in the last 40 years, it is not clear how this material ties in with the broader discussion of Euromayday. We need to more clearly explain how it relates to the rest of the article and make it understandable for the average reader or else move these sentences to the Neo-fascism article. mennonot 09:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Taking these point in turn

• "eurocentric anti-capitalist groups" - POV term without any reference (ditto for the end of that paragraph)

The quote from the Foti interview with its anti-Asian and anti-American perspective are the references which support this.

• "has invited comparisons with the emergence of fascism from syndicalism" - same as above, no source given from any reputable figure
• the bit on fascist and anarchist intersection is largely unsourced (I'll concede the Eurasia Party issue and Cercle Proudhon - although both are given without context (and what do the WOMBLES have to do with this?))

The earlier fascist/anarchist intersection is discussed on the neo-fascism page. Foti's interview appears on the WOMBLES website and the WOMBLES have been involved both with the PGA and with Euromayday.

I think a lot of the issues are linked with fringe groups around the London ESF meeting in 2004, and perhaps work needs to be done on that if these consequential issues are to become clearer. Also I think the elision of class politics into nationalism is also a feature of Social Democracy (support of the war in 1914) and the trajectory of the USSR, whereby it became a vehicle for nationalism.Harrypotter 17:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The context of the Foti quote compares European developments to the lack of welfare provision in Asia and America. Not Eurocentric or anti-Asian/American - no more so than opposing sweatshop labour makes me anti-(say) Bangladeshi.

The page on neo-Fascism says nothing of anarchism. Placing the words "has invited comparisons with the emergence of fascism..." without reliable source in the article is dangerous not to mention erroneous. Further, this is all based on interpretation rather than fact, and so is by definition POV - and a POV which is not sufficiently significant to warrant inclusion in this article.

Would agree the WOMBLES should be mentioned here due to their involvement with EuroMayDay (although given its international nature it may be best under "see also" with a mention in the other article that they've been involved as of late). --Black Butterfly 12:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

"These are the staples – the building blocks of a more advanced, solidarious, less darwinist society - that could become the ‘European model’ as opposed to the neoliberal model or to the Chinese or the nationalist capitalist model." Another quote from Foti, hwere he centres Asia on China. This insistence that the European model is more advanced, or that a more advanced model should be promoted as being European is a classic example of Eurocentrism. Your reference to sweatshops and Bangladesh is inappropriate, as the sweated labour is used to provide cheap consumer goods to highly developed markets such as the EU etc. i.e we have a world market, and the Bangladeshi sweatshop (whether in Bangladesh or Whitechapel) is as much a part of that system as social forms in Europe. Perhaps another more interesting parallel would be suggesting that those opposed to slavery were anti-black. Clearly when you look at the abolitionist movement many of them did not want Africans in their society - as well as thinking slavery was immoral. However, the issue here is not so much ethnicity, as geo-political identity and citizenship. Implicit in Foti's demands "across the EU" are EU legislation and enforcement, i.e. developing the EU as a state, with working class loyalty being created through welfare provision. But it is in fact more the sorelian myth of the welfare state which is being used to foster a Euro-identity. I agree the page on neo-fascism is woefully inadequate. There is no mention of Enrico Corradini either. Alot of this links back to the London ESF, which I am considering how to handle. Are you familiar with that. I understand that Foti has ditched the chainworkers for the Green Party!Harrypotter 19:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll concede that based on the quotes provided, Foti does seem to have a certain European arrogance - although again, he seems to be referencing state/capital economic models in particular areas of the world rather than the peoples and ethnic groups involved. The criticism is more to do with his belief that Europe could do it better.

I do question however just how relevant some arguably Eurocentric comments by one individual involved in precarity struggles in Italy are to the Europe-wide mobilisation known as EuroMayDay. I am familiar with the London ESF, although I'd question its relevance to EuroMayDay specifically.

It sounds like what you're talking about is more to do with an article on contemporary anti-capitalism and neo-fascism, which this article could then link to in part. As it is, the neo-fascist comparison is drowning out the content of the page in spite of the fact that the majority of those involved have nothing but loathing for Nazism.

The article propsed could deal with specific incidents (PGA, London ESF, historical context, etc.) rather than crowd out other articles like this. It should also be noted that individual anarchists, whatever their failings and vaguely nationalist sympathies, should not be taken to indicate the wider movement, which is staunchly anti-nationalist. --Black Butterfly 11:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Having considered the issues I think perhaps Social Patriotism might be a better reference point. Despite the invovlement of people who present themselves as anarchists, the inherent programme is much more social democratic in nature. As regards the ESF, the Middlesex declaration emerged from teh autonomous spaces which ran alongside the official ESF. See also: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/11/300348.html. Harrypotter 11:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)