Talk:Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy

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Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: December 27, 2007

Contents 1 Looking for less, not more 2 Biography Box 3 WikiProject class rating 4 Recast of Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy biography 4.1 Progress 4.2 Comments on Progress 5 Honorary LLD 6 GA assessment 6.1 Overall assessment 6.2 Detailed assessment

[edit] Looking for less, not more

The article has long stood in a kind of essay form. I had hoped that over time it would become less of an essay, but I think that recent edits, although interesting, have made it more of one. I'm concerned that this is not a good direction; as a summary or analysis of what Rosenstock-Huessy has written doesn't seem to be an easy thing to do, and it may unwise to attempt to do so in such a confined space. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Mkmcconn. The article has become of a encyclopedia-style biography and more of a series of book reports. See my proposal, below. HopsonRoad 11:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biography Box

This article could graduate from a stub with a proper biography box with picture. Surely there is a jacket cover available to provide the picture. Those in the know will note that Rosenstock-Huessy's last address was on Hopson Road.HopsonRoad 03:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Obtained permission to use photo, added biography info box.HopsonRoad 02:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Since Rosenstock-Huessy is specifically known and referenced to as a social and language philosopher, I think an {{Infobox Philosopher}} would be much more appropriate than the generic {{Infobox Person}} currently employed. -- alexgieg (talk) 03:24, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 06:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Upgraded to Start with biography info box.HopsonRoad 02:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recast of Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy biography

Currently this article reads like a series of book reports after the introductory material. I propose to do the following steps:

• 1. Move the discussions of each book to a page of its own, where it can be developed appropriately (e.g. see Thomas L. Friedman's The World Is Flat).
  2. Cite and draw on the two current well-written on-line biographical summaries found here and here.
  3. Fix the many problems with non-Wiki style found in this article (references, lead paragraph, etc.)

I invite other comments and ideas on this approach. I plan to proceed, starting November 18. HopsonRoad 11:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

• I am in full agreement with the above proposal. --Palaeovia^talk 12:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. Thank you for your help, HopsonRoad. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 23:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Progress

• OK, I brought over a new version for previewing. I need to work on the Harvard references—they have to link to the appropriate citation. I have the articles on key books in the works.—HopsonRoad 12:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
• I have made new articles for Soziologie, Out of Revolution, I Am an Impure Thinker, and Speech and Reality. I still haven't conquered the Harvard References. HopsonRoad (talk) 03:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
• I have the references working properly.HopsonRoad (talk) 23:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on Progress

Fine. Adelante! -- €pa (talk) 01:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Honorary LLD

Rosenstock-Huessy reportedly received an honorary Doctor of Laws degree in 1967 from the University of California, Santa Clara. This information remains here, awaiting independent citable verification.--User:HopsonRoad 20:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA assessment

[edit] Overall assessment

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

[edit] Detailed assessment

1:

• Very minor grammar issues, e.g. “In 19xx” not always offset by comma and extraneous punctuation (see “During World War II” and “Renewed labor education” sections).

Y Done Punctuation repaired.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Section headers should be noun or noun phrases (e.g. “During World War I” and “Between world wars” would be, more appropriately, “World War I” and “Interwar Period”, respectively). In a header, only the first letter and proper nouns should be capitalized (e.g. “Return to Academia” should be “Return to academia”).

Y Done Section headers corrected.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Quotes with 4 or more lines and quotes serving as a whole paragraph should be in box quote format (see “Return to academia” and “Dartmouth College” sections)

Y Done Paraphrased rather than quoted.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Translations are not consistently provided, e.g. “Löwenberger Arbeitslager” and “Die Kreatur”

Y Done Translations provided throughout.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Umlaut in Hüssy is used in the lead, but never again in the article. Either “ü” or “ue” needs to be used consistently throughout.

Y Done Explanation of evolution of spelling moved to a footnote.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Peacock words/phrases, e.g. “a scholarly man”, “appalling”, “atrocious”, “important”, etc.

Y Done Searched for and removed such phrases.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

2:

• I’m concerned about the heavy use of autobiographical sources, for obvious WP:V and WP:NPOV reasons. Per WP:SELFPUB, “Material from self-published … sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as … the article is not based primarily on such sources”. WP:RS, additionally, requires “third party” sources. As I’m not aware of policy explicitly mentioning the use of autobiographies in articles about deceased individuals, this issue alone would not preclude me from passing the article. I would, however, recommend that additional, alternative sources be used.
• Phrases such as “Subsequent scholars have found much of what he wrote about human culture to be insightful and prophetic”, “with very high academic standards” and “offers a good overview of Rosenstock-Huessy's thought processes” appear to violate WP:NOR (not to mention WP:NPOV).

3:

• Possible factual inaccuracy - “German Army drafted Rosenstock-Huessy as a lieutenant”. A lieutenant in the German army is an Offizierdienstgrad. Especially given the aristocratic nature of the WWI German (i.e. Prussian) armed forces, I find it difficult to believe that anyone, especially someone with no military background, would be conscripted as a commissioned officer. This assertion needs a reliable, third-party source.

Y Done Reference to rank removed. Freya von Moltke reports that R-H was promoted after he was drafted, but have not found a published reference on this.--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Known factual inaccuracy – article states “he obtained a position with Daimler-Benz, the German car manufacturer”, implicitly on or about 1919. Daimler-Benz did not exist as such until the 1926 merger of Benz & Cie. and Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft. For which of the two did he work?

Y Done Corrected: Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft. Confirmed both by reference and Freya von Moltke.--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Article essentially defines Rosenstock as “a social philosopher, who taught at Dartmouth College”, but precious little narrative regarding his capacity as a professor or, more importantly, the content of his works is provided. Article is, in this sense, extremely vague. Article needs to provide substantive description of the content of his works, the schools of thought/philosophy to which he belonged (if any), his contributions to the field, etc. Article does not even expand on metanomics.
• Incomplete thoughts, e.g. Why did WWII cause the CCC programs to end?

Y Done Explained: WWII drafted men and drew women into war effort.--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Discrepancy - article asserts Soziologie is unavailable in English, but the provided volume names are only in English.

4:

• Article tone and quote selections are approbatory in their treatment of the subject. There is no criticism or opposing thought section. Certainly there must be scholars, philosophers, etc. who reject or otherwise criticize his thoughts.
• Article states “Soon after January 30, 1933, when Germany fell to National Socialism”. Use of “fell” has certain connotations and is, consequently, a WP:NPOV violation. Germany did not fall to National Socialism; evil though it was, NS was a duly elected government.

Y Done Corrected: NS "assumed power."--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

6:

• The Verdun photo is not appropriate for this article. It does not meaningfully/appropiately illustrate the subject at hand, the subject’s involvement in the conflict or the conflict itself.

Y Done Photograph has been removed.--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

General:

• Many of these concerns seem to be relatively trivial to remedy. I believe, however, that the content is sufficiently lacking to preclude holding the article. Please let me know if assistance or elaboration is needed. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ _talk 21:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)