Talk:Ethnocentrism

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1 Comment
2 I like the current version
3 Religious and Ethnic Differences
4 deleted as irrelevant
5 Anglocentrism
6 Wikipedia Ethnocentricity
7 Types of E.
8 Criticisms?
9 World problems
10 Citing, References
11 Zionism

[edit] Comment

In the United States foreigners or immigrants that are not considered residents are called "sasquatches"[citation needed] and in the case they do not hold a legal status within the country they are called "illegal aliens". The connotation of the word does not only suggest pure ethnocentrism but is in some sense a distancing language used between an American citizen and an immigrant or visitor. -- This is ludicrous. Should be cut. 71.182.109.161 04:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

ɬI suppose Big Fat Greek Wedding or whatever is a movie? I don't know it. I think this is a wasted reference to something rather contemporary and obscure. It doesn't seem like a good idea to include references to movies or songs, unless there is a reason to suspect worldwide knowledge about them.

It is rather contemporary, but anything but obscure. Nonetheless, it's spelt out well enough, I'm not sure it's a problem. Do you have a better example? WilyD 20:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

. Please stop making up words. Christians are not even an ethnic group! If you want to write an article on pro-Christian bias, or pro-Christian theology, or on how non-Christians see Christianity as exclusive (as all non-Christians are damned) or on pro-Christian antyhing, then come up with a specific idea, a title based on fact, and start writing content that refers to and relies on scholarship. RK

I think the term you are looking for is "christian dogma"

Crows

are not an ethnic group... which is why they call it RELIGIOcentricism.  This is not a made-up word.

I removed the discussion of the various chauvinist movements. If our definition and my understand is correct, ethnocentrism does not refer to chauvinism, but rather toward making a particularly group the center of your world-view, and is particularly useful in studying academia and learning, etc. DanKeshet

I take issue with that narrow interpretation Dan: We use Ethnocentrism here as a polite, and encyclopedic way of referring to chauvinist attitudes of all kinds... to what detail others may comment on your particular flavor' of ethnocentrism remains, always... contentious. -'Vert Ps. I just got in - has much been going on?

"There is no such thing as Christian religiocentrism" well, its not pretty. As for "ethnic groups" - RK, there needs to be an understanding of the broadness of the term ethnicity: In the old days, "ethnicity" meant geographic and linguistic separations. But now, for example, you and I are not of the same ethnic groups, per se, and yet we are : Americans more or less make up an ethnic group - bound by language, identity, values, etc. The concept of their being "Judeo-Christian values" for example, is a perfect example of what I called ethnoconvergence - or transculturation. JCV's exist only in the modern, converging-culture context, where the overall American culture provides for an umbrella that includes the other long-established cultures - ethnic groups if you will. Look at where we are: Never again will the lack of communication between people will provide for further cultural migration - divergence. Wikipedia is proof of this. -'Vert

Ethnocentrism is a valid subject for Wikipedia to cover. I suggest that this article describe the social, political and psychological reasons that create various forms of ethnocentrism. It could describe how most forms of ethnocentrism have peaceful benign and even tolerant aspects, and how only specific variants of ethnocentrism lead to hatred against people of other groups. Such an entry could legitimately discuss various forms of ethnocentrism. RK

I agree - ethnocentrism has an opposite, which is a kind of psychosis - a neurotic obsession with another culture, and that cultures self-centrism: alienocentrism. :) -'Vert

I have reverted GrahamN's vandalism. I find it a violation of academic integrity, and a violation of Wikipedia communal protocol, to slander Jews in such a blatant and offensive way. I understand that a handful of people are trying to use Wikipedia to spread the lie that ethnocentrism exists among Jews alone, but I hope that the majority of Wikipedia contributors can recognize this for the anti-Jewish attack that it is. If people would like to contribute to a serious and academic article on ethnocentrism, that would be warmly welcomed. But if your interest is for Jew-bashing, please go elsewhere. RK

Just to clarify, is the issue that GrahamN wants to only list Related Articles that already exist and RK wants potential ones too? Does Wikipedia have a policy on this? (Not rhetorical, I really don't know). Tuf-Kat

I have no particular axe to grind. I just saw that RK had made a ridiculously childish, petulant edit, and I reverted it. On reflection I should have left it for somebody else to sort out. GrahamN 16:02 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

Could I suggest that if RK or anyone else wants to include such things as Italian or French ethnocentrism they at least write a short stub indicating what they are/how they are manifested? Being Italian, I find it hard to conceive of a nation so less fussed about its ethnicity, particularly given the large ethnic divisions between North and South. And please don't confuse ethnocentrism with nationalism or patriotism.cferrero 15:54 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

Too late: I'm already confused. I thought ethnocentrism was the "norm", i.e., that every culture at all times in history:

regarded their culture as the most important group in the world
judged all other groups relative to their culture

Moreover, it was exceedingly rare in history for any group anywhere at any time in history to seek an absolute standard or even to look for valuable things to copy from other cultures. Only ancient Greece ever did that, if I remember my Toynbee correctly. --Uncle Ed 16:22 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

Put in that context, I would agree. But we can hardly have an individual entry for every single nationality. Rather, the theme merits specific mention of any ethnocentrism that stands out from the norm, perhaps by being particularly 'visible' in every day life. In which case Jewish ethnocentrism would probably warrant a mention, but (for instance) Belgian ethnocentrism wouldn't. cferrero 16:34 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

For the record, afrocentrism is a valid term that has a specific meaning and needs an article. Tuf-Kat

I approve of the current edits on this page. -&#35918&#30505

I'm stopping with the merger of Americo- Germano- and Anglo- ... I would merge Judeo but I think that needs more than a cut and paste and I'm done for today.

I think the definition given at the top of the page and the examples given below are in conflict. (Moreover, I think the examples are misplaced and poorly researched--eurocentrism and afrocentrism are both commonly used concepts; our examples are not, AFAICT.) But the key is that americo-centric, if such a thing were a common concept, would mean that you judge everything using the U.S. as a benchmark, you ignore important things that happen outside of the U.S., etc., not that you "favor" the U.S. DanKeshet

Should we discuss Xenocentrism as an opposing idea?[1] I don't know how common this term is but I'm using it in my sociology class.--129.2.221.60 00:00, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] I like the current version

Discussion of ethnocentrism as a tenet of academia is necessary.

[edit] Religious and Ethnic Differences

Earlier RK noted that there is a difference between ethnicity and religion - something a lot of people seem to be forgetting. While I dont know of any popular academic term that describes advocation of a type of theology (except maybe proselityzing), I think it would be good if Wikipedians came up with a separate article for Theological advocation or Religious Centralism, etc. The current page on Jewish ethnocentrism doesn't even make sense. Jews are no longer a single ethnicity. If the page was (cleanedup for one thing) retitled "Historical Jewish Centralism" it might warrant its existence. If a new page devoted to religious centralism it could have branch pages devoted to the religions of the page Major world religions. I would suggest against any title using the word supremacy as this has gained a pejorative context in the recent era. In addition, when talking about the convergence of ethnicities I believe the common term is "cultural diffusion" though that may not be what you're getting at since (whoever it was who was talking about that) was focused on ethnicity rather than ideas or disease. freestylefrappe 23:32, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

I removed the last paragraph about ethnocentrism being the cause of wars and conflict between nations since it was purely the opinion of the writer and not backed up by historical fact. The fact that a nations' public might be more accepting of war mongering and colonialism when it's done in an atmosphere of ethnocentrism does not mean that ethnocentrism in and of itself is the cause of these wars and conflicts (corelation does not prove causeation). History (especially 20th century history) clearly shows that the main cause of war is control of resources, access to markets, exploitation of cheap labour souces, and escalating rivalries between competing capitalist nations. Like its' relative racism, etnocentrism is often cultivated by the ruling class of a nation in order to make its' profit driven conquests and inter imperial conflicts more pallateble to the public who otherwise would react with horror at the suffering that the capitalist drive for ever increasing profit brings on their fellow human beings. 142.173.65.37

If you say so "Marx". freestylefrappe 01:01, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] deleted as irrelevant

"The Indians invented the concept of zero (although it is often attributed to the Arabs...), especially the use of the digit zero as a placeholder in arithmetic calculations (multiplication and long division were a nightmare in the Hellenistic Sphere of Rome and Greece), as well as the idea of the algorithm.

Various cultures have laid claim to having created the phonetic alphabet, or indeed, even writing itself. "

Benwing 02:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anglocentrism

As there are links to American Exceptionalism, Afrocentrism, Eurocentrism and Germanocentrism, I think there should also be a separate article on Anglocentrism which is the predominant mentality in England e.g "Fog in English Channel, continent cut off"

I agree to that. I don't see why there is a link to those particular centrisms (Why germanocentrism ?) and not to others (Why not USA centrism ?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.25.232.221 (talk) 15:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Wikipedia Ethnocentricity

I have noticed that Wikipedia embodies neo-imperialism and ethnocentricity in the fact that contributors/ions are often 'necessarily' of 'inappropriate' origin. Caucasians making key edits on pages which are 'nubocentric' for instance. ^freedom Annawright 16:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you're looking for Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering Systemic Bias? WilyD 20:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to point it out but nubocentric isn't even a word. Second, how can you possibly know if someone editing the page is Caucasian or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.113.54 (talk) 19:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Types of E.

Giovanni33, you may not like Zionism, but putting it in the list of "Types of ethnocentrism" next to Nazism, Neo-Nazism, and White supremacism is POV, especially when other national liberation movements are not listed there. What "Type of ethnocentrism" is it? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 23:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well you don't know what my likes or dislikes of Zionism is. That is not relevant. What is relevant is that it is an example of ethnocentrism. It is also next to "Afrocentrism" which has nothing to do with Nazism, Neo-Nazism, or White Supremacism. Infact Afrocentrism is progressive, and is part of a national liberation movement. So your statment is false. What all these have in common, though, along with Zionism--and why they should be listed here-- is that they are all ethnic based nationalist ideologies. That is the point. And this point is based on this subject exactly by having a diverse list of types, examples of ethnocentrist types. If you want to include other examples as well, that is fine. Here is a scholarly article by Professor Kevin MacDonald, who makes clear that Zionism is ethnocentrism, should there be any doubts: http://www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol3no3/km-understandII.html Giovanni33 23:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Try harder. Kevin MacDonald as a scholarly source. Why not David Irving? See Kevin B. MacDonald#MacDonald and David Irving. I'll consider adding it to the list after hundreds of other similar movements are there. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 00:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Why not David Irving, because Irving is discredited given his anti-semitism and historical revisionsism, in particular holocaust denial. MacDonald does not fall into that camp. His defesnse of the former stems from free speech concerns, much as Chomsky did for someone of the same ilk. One is not guilty by association, and this does nothing to impune his academic credencials nor his valid pov. We do not need to have hundreds of groups, we need to have the main ones: white nationalism, black nationalism, asian nationaism, arabic nationism, and yes, jewish nationalism. Why do you want to exclude one group? Giovanni33 00:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

MacDonald is not that far from Irving. A better question is, why did you pick the Jews (note capital J) and not Basques, Chukchis, Kurds, etc. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 00:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean to say that MacDonald denies the holocaust, in some manner? Can you support that claim? If he does then I'd agree with you. Also, I'm familiar with Zionism as an ideology, and feel its an important example, more so than the Basques, Chukchis, and Kurds--given the nature of the ongoing conflicts in the world. I do not object if you find examples of ethnic nationalism from these groups, but I do object you to removing zionism. That is unjustified.Giovanni33 00:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

See strawman. KMD a controversial enough to be discarded as a reliable source. Back to the topic: thank you for your POV but Zionism does not belong in the list because it is not an Ethnocentrism (despite what KMD may say). ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 10:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

One might argue whether MacDonald's view should be included here - I'd argue against it, as IMO he's a one man show crackpot: I don't fancy psychologists, not even "evolutionary" ones, to dabble with ethnology. However, to use his views as base for authoritative classification is unwarranted any which way. --tickle me 14:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

MacDonald is a psychologist who studies wolf behavior. Anything he writes about wolf behavior I would count as ascholarly. His books on Jews are not scholarly, they are anti-semitic opinions. Zionism is not ethnocentrism. No Zionist has ever claimed that the Jewish people are superior to all other people, or that all peoples should live like zionists. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about apples and oranges here. Ethnocentrism is about a way of looking at the world. Zionism is about the creation of a Jewish homeland on the land of Israel. IMO, many of the "types" listed shouldn't be listed for this reason altho I am not familiar with many of them. IMO, this whole list is kind of "ethnocentric" in itself and should be removed. 64.212.90.254 16:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

There's no way Zionism belongs here. Love it or hate it, Zionism is not about "Jews are superior, we deserve a place to live," it's about "Jews have long been considered inferior, but we deserve a place to live." IronDuke 16:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Ethnocentricism isn't ethnoSUPREMACY. It simply refers to a philosophy in which one looks at the world from the perspective of one's own culture. Zionism is such a thing. Please try to actually think about what you're saying before you say it.

[edit] Criticisms?

This page badly needs a criticisms section, for as it stands now, it is biased. Yeah, I'm biased too-I don't believe in ethnocentrism (in most cases anyway), and think it is used as a slur against those who defend the West. Still, I think if ethnocentrism is to have a fair hearing, part of that would entail a criticisms section. 152.163.100.6 04:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World problems

This article concludes:

The lack of balance and feedback from other cultures has caused the western world to be plagued with psychological problems and environmental destruction, while other cultures are plagued with disease and starvation. Communication and respect between cultures could possibly eradicate those persistent problems.

I am not sure if these are really established facts. Romper 19:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citing, References

—famously characterized by President Abraham Lincoln as "the last, best hope of Earth"&mdash

The full qoute is: "In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free -- honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth." I think hope refers here to 'Freedom', not to the USA.

A Japanese word for foreigner ("gaijin") can have the connotation of "outsiders to Japan," and is very often used to specifically refer to westerners. Japanese do not normally use the term to describe themselves when visiting other countries. ^{[citation needed]}

Sort of biased. Compare to the article gaijin.

Tribal and familial groups are often seen to dominate in economic settings where transaction costs are high. Examples include the crime syndicates of Russia, Sicily, and the United States, prison gangs, and the diamond trade (Salter 2002).

Relevance? Sven Lotz 20:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ethnocentrism is a sociological term. It doesn't mean being racist necessarily. It has to do with norms and values. It is used to justify racism, but it is not racism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rds865 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The statement about foreigners being aliens is redundant, foreigner means alien. Native Americans aren't the only people whose name mean "the people" Maybe there should be a section on maps, and how different groups put different places at the center. lot of citations needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rds865 (talk • contribs) 18:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zionism

There is a difference between nationalism and ethnocentrism. Zionism is the former, not the latter, so I've removed it from the list of types of ethnocentricity. - June 2, 2008 4:40 EST

The former draws on the latter, but I agree. I see no specific case for Zionism. forestPIG 21:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

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