Talk:Ernst Zündel
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[edit] Quote section
This quote section contains numerous cherry-picked quotes in what seems to me an attempt to paint the subject in a certain light. How necessary is this section? Shouldn't this just be merged into the article? It seems to violate Wikipedia's NPOV policy pretty badly to me. Some of these violate context pretty blatantly, for example - Zündel has presented himself delivering warnings to the Jews, not making threats to them as the holocaust quote would imply, for example. And how would you "balance" it? By just adding more quotes? What a mess, just merge them into the article if they are really that necessary.
I've deleted it once with this reasoning before, however it was simply restored. :bloodofox: 03:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The quotations do not express the views of any editor or any source other than Zundel himself. I don't see an NPOV issue. Gazpacho 07:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- It's the SELECTION of the quotes that are the problem. Selecting specific quotes can give an impression - it's context. I've since removed the quotes in question. If you need to use them, work them into the article, otherwise you're pushing the NPOV limits. :bloodofox: 04:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Deportation update
This probably needs inclusion in the artical somehow considering it's relevance. It's the ruling that Zundel was deported under. Although the ruling is suspended for one year current detainees have been granted bail and are free to leave the country.
"Canada's Supreme Court struck down a controversial anti-terror law on Friday (23/02/2007) that allows foreign suspects to be detained indefinitely without trial on the basis of secret evidence. The court ruled unanimously that the government had broken the Charter of Rights and Freedoms by issuing so-called security certificates to imprison people, pending deportation, without giving them a chance to see the government's case. The court suspended the ruling for a year to allow Parliament time to rewrite the relevant part of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act -- under which the certificates are issued. The Supreme Court ruling said one way to improve the system of certificates would be to appoint a special advocate to challenge the security evidence." (c) Reuters 2007. All rights reserved. Wayne 22:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The above information - deported using an unconstitutional law, would fit in nicely at the end of the "detention and deportation" section of the article. I believe Zundel was hustled out of the country while this law was being questioned. 159.105.80.63 17:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The article mentions that he lost both constitutional challenges - I believe a rewrite is in order ( he won both eventually - maybe only the last? ). No mention either of the invaluable aid given by the US government in withholding evidence that he was not a security threat - give credit where it is due. Also the Canadian government helped by withholding evidence as long as they could - bravo ( I think they were hoping the old guy would die in solitary but he just wouldn't ). Both governments acted like they were under severe pressure but we all know that can't be true.159.105.80.63 18:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
In the article it mentions that the West German government notified the Canadian Jewish Council of Zundel's publishing. Do governments usually notify various Jewish Councils if they want something done? What did the Jewish Council do - do they have an official role in Canadian government affairs?159.105.80.141 15:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Why was the ban on his mailing lifted in 1983 - was it an illegal ban? The eventual overturning of bans, convictions, etc against Zundel in Canada by the Supreme Court seems to point to pressure on the government from someone ( CJC maybe?). You article in being partial fair to a close reader may undo itself - who edited this by leaving in some facts and still keeping the shrill(there is probably a better word, accusatory maybe) tone - bravo.159.105.80.141 15:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Do any of these articles ever get redone - uncited garbage seems to take precedence over facts. Editors who state that an article needs to be improved - toward the truth - get ignored. Even discussion pages get altered if they get too uncomfortable. Good work.159.105.80.141 18:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
No mention of his house being firebombed. No arresets I believe. No investigation? Maybe that it why he left Canada - RCMP seemed to be unable to act. Did Irving have similar problems? The dangerous deniers seem to get burned, beaten, etc by those nice liberals at will.159.105.80.141 14:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
- So fix it. Provide reliable, verifiable sources, and present them with a neutral point of view, and it will improve the article. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
It is fairly hard to find articles on the arson and pipe bomb attacks against Zundel - Canadian sources seem to have alrgely dried up. However, and I hate to do use this as a source, nizkor has an article on Zundel that mentions the event ( arson and pipe bombs ) so I guess we can get past the question of whether it happened. Archives mention the JDL, the terrorist organization ( citation - FBI records )members, Krugel and Rubin, being involved. I believe Mr Rubin even boasted publically about the Zundel arson. I have seen extensive reports on these events and the news articles to go with them - maybe on Zundelsite, etc. But except for the good work of nizkor and McVay? this story appears to be headed for burial. 159.105.80.141 13:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
On the Zundelsite- from which you can get the details and citations - some really hilarious trivia. It appears that the FBI/CIA/USA evidence that was used in Canada to help claasify ( and justify US actions ) involved mut]ltiple steps. It appears that Mr Zundel had once known ( slightly) a Mr Pierce - long since dead - who had written the Turner Diaries. The Turner Diaries were in turn read by Mr McVeigh ( the world reknown bomb design expert of ok bombing fame ). Therefore Mr Zundel is a terrorist. It's the best humor piece you will ever read. There is far more on his site - original news articles, etc.159.105.80.141 14:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry - the above report about Zundel/Pierce/McVeigh was actually a court document I believe, it just is amusing. Zundel also has the transcript used to jail Rubin or Krugel - the JDL terorists - where they bragged about the arson activities. The pipe bombs were known by the RCMP but they still got through the mail, but Zundel called them up and declined to open them himself.159.105.80.141 14:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
RE his ancestory. The mothers family is almost certainlt Jewish. The village where they came from was predominately Jewish. Zundel still thinks the holocaust is bunkum - he must be a self-hating Jew. Even Zundel, at one time, thought that Israel might be his best chance at emmigration ( until the got denial laws - fairly recently)( that he entertained that scenario seems to seal the deal).159.105.80.141 14:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Citation - aratoronto.com - they document the arson and pipe bombing. They appear to be in favor of arson and pipe bombs judging from their comments - they say they just got beat to the punch by some group with a similar name. The Zundel site gives the complete police deposition with lots of background info on the widespread police investigation - when others beyond Zundel ( and it escalated to murder attempts )got threatened the Canadians finally stomped on the festivities. 159.105.80.141 14:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
It appears that Irving, Rudolf, Zundel, ... are just the tip of the iceberg. In a recent 12 month period there have been over 17,000 thought-crime prosecutions just in Germany. Even one 90+ year old woman who just wrote a letter. I never guessed that the high-profile cases were hiding a jail-busting surge. Singing the traditional first stanza of the German national anthem can get you a jail sentence and/or a big debt. One of Zundel's attorneys was forced to get a psychiatric evaluation when she tried to mount ( a good word in this situation )a defense. I have heard of that being done - but I thought it was only under Stalin ( I guess I was wrong - I wonder if this is part of the Patriot Act ie getting a psych test ).159.105.80.141 14:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The unintended humor in these articles is endless. Reading the main article, the section on whether or not Zundel is part Jewish seems really childish - but for the hell of it I clicked the link to the newspaper article. It turns out that the quote comes from a tabloid ( ie the Enquirer Israeli style ). Do they do Paris and Britney stories, how about Elvis sightings. If a tabloid is a "reliable source" then where in the rankings of "reliable sources" does say nizkor stand ( let's have a poll - consensus of peer reviewed wikians or something along those lines).159.105.80.141 17:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)PS If the tabloid is really the primary source used by the author of this piece then I may want to deny/revise any comments on Zundels Jewsih origins. 159.105.80.141 11:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
"local police" - the local police that arrested him were INS agents ( several - many ). They didn't bother with a warrant - or a hearing or much else. A hearing is supposed to be required, plus the fact that you are appplying for permanent residency status by reason of marriage to an American citizen usually gives you extra slack ( Zundel may have been the fastest deportation in INS history - certainly of someone married to a US citizen ). The memos floating around in the INS computers would make for some good reading I'll bet. Zundel appears to have been spirited out of the US for violating a fairly obscure provisional of immigration law which had actually lapsed ( no longer the law ) before he came to live in the US. His trial in Germany was not based on anything he had done in Germany ( he hadn't lived in Germany for decades ). Zuundel is unique, in that it seems that none of the legal manueveuring used by the US and Canada have ever been used in another case - we are all safer because of the good work of the INS, FBI, CICS and RCMP and our fast acting court systems who are not afraid to cut corners in an emergency. Of course we should not forget the various Jewish Councils who told these groups what and when and whatfor.159.105.80.141 19:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Irme Finta - even the trivia of this article is good. Finta eventually won acquittal. Last time this law was used on a Canadian - Zundel actually hurt himself ( now Canada deports yuo to a country that will convict you - rendition of a sort ).The court of appeals said that a defense of following orders is okay - Canadian law sure has some strange quirks).159.105.80.141 19:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
regarding the bombing of zundels house i have a vhs video of his court cases thre is footage in there that i will make available this is taken from canadian television. it seems to me that in order for someone to be hounded like he has been seems like someone is after this holocaust denier bigtime. this holocast(shoah) is open to serious debate. in some countriesyou get IMPRISONED for denying that there were gas chambers if they existed let people believe that the earth is flat are you going to imprison them too. .zundel also made available all the hate calls he recieved death threats etc. i will make this video available where there reporters from canadian tv showing the pipe bomb damage Dwnndog (talk) 15:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC) robert schmidt
[edit] Revert / "citation needed"
- Den meisten Revisionisten dürfte es nämlich nicht so sehr auf die Richtigkeit der aufgestellten Thesen ankommen, als vielmehr darauf, zu belegen, dass in Deutschland das Recht auf Meinungsfreiheit je nach geäußerter Gesinnung strafrechtlich beschnitten werde. Inwieweit die nun anstehende Revision diesbezüglich als Agitationsfeld genutzt wird, ist noch nicht absehbar.
is taken from the reference http://www.verfassungsschutz-bw.de/rechts/files/r_sonstige_2007_03.htm
English summary in article:
- It is believed that the Holocaust deniers are using this process and the coming revisions to show that freedom of speech is impaired in Germany depending on the ideology of the speaker.
I reverted the incorrect edit of Jpgordon who moved this sentence out of the referenced paragraph and asked for citation. --85.181.42.117 21:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Did six million really die.jpg
FURs added for image use with Ernst Zündel and Holocaust denial articles. Best, A Sniper (talk) 00:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
