Talk:Eric of Pomerania

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject Biography     (Rated B-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. Biography Portal B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] This article is supported by the Royalty and nobility work group. Military history WikiProject     (Rated Start-Class) This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Additional information and associated task forces: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- B-Class-1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points have appropriate inline citations. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- B-Class-2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- B-Class-3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- B-Class-4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- B-Class-5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no This article is not currently associated with a task force. To tag it for one or more task forces, please add the task force codes from the template instructions to the template call. WikiProject Denmark (Rated Start-Class) Portal Eric of Pomerania falls within the scope of WikiProject Denmark, a project to create and improve Denmark-related Wikipedia articles. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, all interested editors are welcome! Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. (FAQ). (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. WikiProject Norway Norway Portal This article is part of WikiProject Norway, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to Norway. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. WikiProject Iceland This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iceland, a WikiProject related to the nation of Iceland. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project’s quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated Start-Class) Middle Ages Portal Eric of Pomerania is part of WikiProject Middle Ages, a project for the community of Wikipedians who are interested in the Middle Ages. For more information, see the project page and the newest articles. Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need. WikiProject Middle Ages To do: WikiProject Sweden The article on Eric of Pomerania is supported by WikiProject Sweden, which is an attempt to improve the quality and coverage of Sweden-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page; if you have any questions about the project or the article ratings below, please consult the FAQ. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. WikiProject Germany  Germany Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no WikiProject Piracy Piracy Portal Eric of Pomerania lies in the latitude of WikiProject Piracy, a crew of scurvy editors bound to sharpen up all Wikipedia's piracy-related articles. If you want to ship with us and help improve this and other Piracy-related articles, lay aboard the project page and sign on for a berth. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale. WikiProject Piracy To-do: edit  Here are some tasks you can do to help with WikiProject Piracy: Requests: Daniel Montbars, Diabolito, Henry Mainwaring, Ignatius Pell Expand: Charles Vane, Edward England, Emanuel Wynn, George Lowther, Henry Every, Pierre Le Grand, Roche Braziliano, Thomas Cocklyn, Woodes Rogers, Cleanup: Buccaneer, Israel Hands Verify: Alexandre Exquemelin Copyedit: Golden Age of Piracy Images:

Contents 1 Portrait 2 Union arms 3 Duke of Pomerania 4 Eric of Pomerania crowned in Norway in 1392?

[edit] Portrait

The caricature is contemporary (I believe the full picture also features a Byzantine Emperor and, if I remember correctly, the Holy Roman Emperor). Do we have any information about the Polish portait and its age? Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 23:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Union arms

Twthmoses rightly identifies the three crowns in Eric's union arms as representing the Kalmar Union, and not Sweden. But he objects to the idea that the dividing cross also refers to this union. We will probably never know for sure, but it is very likely 'not' a Dannebrog cross, which would only refer to one of the three kingdoms of this union. The Dannebrog cross appearing in later greater arms of Denmark-Norway is usually shown with fimbriated edges in order to identify it expressly as derived from the flag, with a white cross on a red field. The cross in Eric's union seal is more likely the red cross of the flag that he unsuccessfully tried to adopt for the Kalmar union. That theory has been advocated by the well-known Danish expert on heraldry, Nils G. Bartholdy. See his article: "De tre kroner og korset. Unionssymbolik, ambition og rivalitet", in: Heraldisk tidsskrift, 76 (1997), pp. 233-260. More on the flag of Norden in the FOTW article http://flagspot.net/flags/xn_nordn.html.

The Kalmar union flag had a red cross on a yellow field. The colours were possibly chosen because they were those of the only hereditary kingdom, Norway. On a statue depicting Karl VIII of Sweden, also king of Norway for some years, he is shown carrying the union arms of Sweden and Norway, quartered by a red cross with gold fimbriation. This cross is presumed to be the same "Nordic" cross, appropriated from the Kalmar union arms, probably to demonstrate Karl's claim to be the rightful ruler of that union.

Roede 14:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Where is that statue located? I'd like to know more about it. For what it is worth, Danish heraldist Erling Svane describes both the seal and another of Eric's arms from a church bench from Kirkebø (Faroes), in one of his books. In the case of Kirkebø, he describes the cross as the Dannebrog cross due to its fimbriation. This symbol is not identical to his seal depicted here since the Kirkebø arms contains the following symbols: 1st quarter: three uncrowned lions (Denmark); 2nd quarter: three crowns (Sweden?); 3rd quarter: three leopards (England. Queen Philippa was English); 4th quarter: Norway. All divided by a fimbriated cross carrying an escutcheon featuring the arms of Pomerania. In this case, he identifies the cross as the Dannebrog. (Erling Svane (1994): Det danske Rigsvåben og Kongevåben, Odense University Press, pp. 77-79). The flag conquered by Lübeck in 1427 and destroyed 1942, showed the arms of Denmark, Sweden (three crowns), Norway and Pomerania divided by a white cross, and with two red square tails, so this too must have been a (rather unusual) Dannebrog. Svane seems to be in two minds regarding the cross in the union seal depicted here. On the one hand, the entire chapter about these arms begins with Efter at tre-løve-våbenet havde været de danske kongers våben i mere end 200 år, fandt Erik af Pommern på at firdele sit våben med dannebrogskorset således, at der kunne anbringes 4 - og med et hjerteskjold - 5 forskellige skjoldmærker i det derved opståede sammensatte våben., but his blazon of the seal merely states Korsdelt skjold med hjerteskjold .... The theory about the fimbriation is interesting though, I'd never really thought about that aspect before. Most likely we will never know for sure unless somebody actually rediscovers a coloured mural in a church. Alas, such chances are pretty low. His arms preserved on Krogen is in very bad shape. In this case, the cross is not described except that "a small red animal" is identified as the remains of an escutcheon with the Pomeranian arms. The probability of errors is naturally very high, given that the arms is in poor shape and might have been repainted. This combined arms is - again - different than the rest with the four quarters occupied by Denmark, three crowns (Sweden?), Norway, and Schleswig.

Regarding the four quarters on the seal, I can only agree that the three crowns must represent the Union, while the Folkung lion represents Sweden. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 20:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The statue of Karl Knutsson Bonde is located at Gripsholm castle in Sweden. It is a wooden statue, carved by the well-known sculptor and painter Bernt Notke from Pomerania. His most famous work is St. George and the Dragon in Storkyrkan of Stockholm, in memory of Sten Sture's victory at Brunkeberg in 1471. Even though Notke's statue of king Karl was carved long after the dissolution of the short-lived union between Sweden and Norway, he is depicted as king of both countries, carrying the union arms. The inescutcheon shows his family arms (Bonde), the main shield is quartered, with the Swedish arms in the first and fourth quarters, the Norwegian arms in the second and third. The cross deviding the shield is golden, with a rather narrov red stripe along the middle of each arm.

A good picture is to be found in volume 4, page 178 of Aschehoug's Norges historie, published in 1996 (editor: Halvard Bjørkvik).

I don't have Heraldisk tidsskrift at hand, but I seem to recall that Nils G. Bartholdy refers to the same statue of Karl Knutsson in his interesting article from 1997. I think that this article also shows Karl's arms from seals or coins of the period. As king of Sweden, his arms are quartered with three crowns and and the Folkunge lion. But as union king, his arms show Sweden and Norway quartered, divided by a fimbriated cross - surely the "Nordic" cross, and not Dannebrog. I think that this substantiates the theory that the cross of Eric's union arms is the same as in Karl's.

You may be interested in the following references, copied from the FOTW page on Norden:

Nils G. Bartholdy: "De tre kroner og korset. Unionssymbolik, ambition og rivalitet", in: Heraldisk tidsskrift, 76 (1997), pp. 233-260 Poul Grinder-Hansen: "Kalmarunionens flag", in: Nyt fra Nationalmuseet, 6 (1996), p. 6 Nils G. Bartholdy: "Kroner og kors som unionssymboler", in: Poul Grinder-Hansen (ed.): Unionsdrottningen: Margareta I och Kalmarunionen, Föreningen Norden: Stockholm, 1996, pp. 92-97

Roede 10:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The triple crown may have been used by the Union, but it predates the Union in its use in Sweden, such as its appearance in the seal of Albert of Sweden and continues today to have wide recognition as a Swedish symbol. That is why I identified the triple crown of the sinister chief quarter as representative of Sweden. My fix to the seal's description, however, was primarily geared toward putting things in the proper quarters, as the previous version had the quarters all mixed up. At least now we are properly identifying dexter and sinister, chief and base, as (anatomic) right and left, top and bottom, respectively. Wilhelm meis 20:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The arms of the dexter base quarter represents Sweden, not Norway. It is the older Swedish arms, called the Folkung lion, still present in the greater arms of Sweden. The Norwegian lion, with St. Olav's axe, is only found in the inescutchon. The use of this older Swedish arms might indicate that the three crowns of the sinister chief quarter should be interpreted as the Kalmar Union rather than Sweden. However, because the identification is uncertain, I have included both possibilities. Also, I have once more removed the unsubstantiated claim that the cross represents Dannebrog, the Danish flag. The cross arms are solid, without the fimbriation that is usually seen in later union arms of Denmark-Norway. The theory advocated by Bartholdy and others seems more plausible — that the cross is a symbol of the union, also found in the yellow and red flag that Erik introduced. (See my comment above of 13 December 2006). Since the meaning of the cross is still controversial, I find it better to omit both theories. Roede 14:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to be the devil's advocate. :) Later portrayals of the Danish(-Norwegian) flag can be an indicator but they are no certain proof. I will try to find a copy of Bartholdy's article, but AFAIK, documentation for a yellow-red union flag is still very sketchy. On the other hand, a flag conquered by Lübeck in 1427 was preserved in that city's St. Mary's Church until World War II [1]. This flag depicted the four main symbols from Eric's arms. The only symbol missing is the arms of Norway. This flag dates from his reign and since the cross is white and the tails are red, I think it is a safe conclusion that this well-documented flag was a Dannebrog. Another issue is that this image apparently dates from 1398. Again my information is sketchy, but isn't the "union flag" normally attributed to c. 1430? Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 22:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Btw, I am aware that the page I linked to [2] does not consider this flag to be a Dannebrog but a union flag. It would obviously be a very unnormal Dannebrog, but given the colours I still think this is the best description. Danish heraldist Erling Svane describes this flag as "det ældste Dannebrogsflag fra 1427 med Erik af Pommerns våben" (Det danske Rigsvåben og Kongevåben, pp. 78-79.) Regards. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 22:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

True, the Kalmar Union flag is only known from two written sources - but they are quite clear about the shape and colours of the flag. According to the FOTW site, "it is described in two letters, both dating from the year 1430. In these letters, king Erik of Pomerania wrote to the priests of Vadstena and Kalmar instructing them to wear on their robes the banner of the realms (union), which were a red cross on a yellow field. Bartholdy is of the opinion that the red cross on a yellow field may have been a conscious choice as new and distinct flag for the union, based on a universal symbol, the cross, and taking the most significant colours from the arms of the three united kingdoms, primarily that of Norway as an inherited realm (king Erik of Pomerania inherited Norway in 1389, several years before being elected king of Denmark and Sweden), but the yellow field also from the arms of Sweden and Denmark at the time." Substantial proof in the shape of actually preserved flags or depictions thereof from that time would be something of a miracle.

I advise a visit to the tomb of Queen Margrethe in Roskilde Cathedral. I recall that her coat of arms is carved in marble, and that it is identical to that of Erik. If my memory serves me right, the cross is without the fimbriations associated with Dannebrog crosses.

The much reproduced but now lost flag of Lübeck is not a very reliable source, as the tinctures of the union arms are mixed up. The arms of Norway (in the lower quadrant near the hoist) shows the lion on a blue field. (Norway is not missing — the colour of the field has made you draw the wrong conlusion). In my opinion, only an act of strong faith can make one see it as a Dannebrog. True, the white cross is present, but in view of the fact that the colours are unreliable, how do we know that the creator of this flag knew the correct colour of the union cross? The most characteristic element, the red field, is missing. (The red "tail" of the flag must be regarded as a mere ornament. The colour is too far out of place to be interpreted as a reference to Dannebrog).

By the way, there is also scant evidence that Dannebrog was actually in common use at the time. Do we have any other evidence than the banner embellishing the arms of the King of Denmark in the Gelre armorial from about 1370? Can one infer from that piece of evidence that the Dannebrog was regarded as the "official" flag of the king or his kingdom?

I propose that we let the matter rest and keep the description in the article unchanged until we have studied the evidence more closely. Roede 23:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I have since found compelling evidence to reverse my previous thought that the Folkung Lion was a Finnish symbol. It turns out that my original source was a bit upside down, and the Folkung Lion as a Swedish symbol significantly predates the use of derivative symbols in Finland. Thanks Roede for challenging the notion. I have corrected the description on this page and the Kalmar Union page. I still maintain, however, that the evidence for retaining the description of the Triple Crown as a Swedish symbol and not as primarily a symbol of the Kalmar Union is overwhelming. Again, its use as a specifically Swedish symbol both significantly predates and survives the Kalmar Union itself. Wilhelm meis (talk) 20:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Copied from User talk:Barend:

I am just curious why you changed the description of Eric's seal to link the lion to "Norway" instead of the "Hereditary Kingdom of Norway". Perhaps it's splitting hairs, but from a heraldic perspective (and this is in a heraldic context), I would think of "the Hereditary Kingdom of Norway" as the more precisely accurate description of what is represented by the lion maintaining an axe, as depicted in the inescutcheon in the center of the seal. If you have a compelling reason for the change, I'd like to know. Thank you. Wilhelm meis (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The rest of the description linked to Denmark, Sweden, etc, the respective countries to which the parts of the seal referred. I see no reason why it shouldn't also link to Norway, which is what the lion referred to. The article hereditary kingdom of Norway is a not very good article about the way the Norwegian throne was inherited at various points in its history. The name "hereditary kingdom of Norway" is not very precise, it has never been an official name of the country, and whether Norway was, in fact, hereditary at this point in time is, in fact, open to debate. I see no reason why that article should be linked to from this place. If you want to be accurate, you could of course change the description to "the kingdom of Sweden, the kingdom of Denmark, the duchy of Pomerania, the kingdom of Norway", etc, but still have the links go to Sweden, Denmark and Norway. --Barend (talk) 21:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thank you for the discussion. As I previously mentioned, I am looking at this from a purely heraldic perspective. As discussed here, the coat of arms in question (depicted within the inescutcheon) originated not as a symbol of Norway per se, but as a symbol of King Eirik Magnusson of Norway, personally. Since the coat of arms, along with the kingdom, was passed down the hereditary line, I think it is more accurate to link the one with the other, rather than directly equating the device with the nation state of Norway (a correlation that eventually developed with the cultural development of the national identity in the 19th century). Basically, I think to us in the 21st century, it represents Norway, but to Erik of Pomerania and his contemporaries, it represented Norway as the domain of Eirik Magnusson and his heirs. Wilhelm meis (talk) 23:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think I see what you mean. You have a good point, but I don't think the specific article hereditary kingdom of Norway is any better to link to in that case. An important point is that Eric didn't, in fact, get the kingdom passed down the hereditary line, it ended up with him as the result of political decisions - basically he was elected in Norway as well. And anyway, the point would be the same for Sweden and Denmark as well, not just Norway.--Barend (talk) 11:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I would counter that whether or not he inherited the Kingdom of Norway, the symbol still (at the time) represented the concept of the hereditary kingdom. Again, I am looking at this from a heraldic perspective; there are others who know much more than I do about the actual history of the period. In any case, thank you for the thoughtful discussion. May I copy this to the Talk:Eric_of_Pomerania page? Wilhelm meis (talk) 02:12, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Wilhelm meis (talk) 23:23, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Duke of Pomerania

The article says that he was Duke of Stolp/Słupsk from 1449-59. Dukes of Pomerania lists a "Casimir I" as the duke during that time period. Olessi (talk) 20:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Eric of Pomerania crowned in Norway in 1392?

It seems like there is some evidence for this.[3][4] I found this while I was making the article on Royal coronations in Norway. Does anyone know more about it? -- Nidator ^{T / C} 20:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Eldbjørg Haug at the University of Bergen believes she has found evidence for this, and has written an article about it in Historisk Tidsskrift. Some historians have been convinced, others have not. There was a debate about it in Historisk Tidsskrift in the 1990s. At the moment it would be correct to say that this is disputed in the scholarly community, which is more or less what the article says at the moment.

Debating the merits of the claim is not for us to do here at wikipedia, of course. But to summarize, from memory, Haug has found a letter written by the King of England to queen Margrethe, where he congratulates her on Erik's recent coronation as King of Norway. The counterargument goes that the English king may in fact have been referring to Erik's hailing as King of Norway, and not been aware of the difference between hailing and coronation. There are no other sources that mention a coronation, except for the English king's letter, so if it happened, it has left no trace in Scandinavian sources, and this has also made some historians wary of accepting the coronation scenario. If, on the other hand, one accepts the separate Norwegian coronation theory, that may explain why there were so few Norwegian magnates at the coronation in Kalmar in 1397. The bottom line is that we will never know, one way or the other. Unless someone discovers a stack of newspapers from the 1390s, or Erik's diary.--Barend (talk) 13:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Could it not be added to the article if both sides are presented (an expansion of what you just did)? It is an interesting subject. -- Nidator ^{T / C} 13:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot to add to this article - I've been planning on expanding it for a long time, but never seem to get around to it. The whole topic of how Erik came to the throne is very interesting, and deserves a more extensive treatment than the article currently gives. If you have access to Historisk Tidsskrift, Haug's articles are "Erik av Pommerns norske kroning" and ”Erik av Pomerns norske kroning nok en gang. Svar til Knut Dørum og Erik Opsahl.” (Norsk) Historisk tidsskrift 74, nr. 1 (1995), pp. 1 – 21 og 492 – 508 (stated on her website), and Knut Dørum and Erik Opsahl's articles are in the same issue.--Barend (talk) 20:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I found an English language summary of Haug's article online: here.--Barend (talk) 21:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the URL! -- Nidator ^{T / C} 21:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)