Talk:Emanuel Swedenborg
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[edit] Anonymous edits
The last few edits by anonymous User:209.53.208.35 are obviously motivated by religious devotion, clearly not NPOV and should probably be reverted wholesale. However, there may still be something of value in them. It would be nice if somebody with knowledge of Swedenborg's theology could look through the article. / up+land 23:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Erm - any idea where the edit history has gone? Only the last edit appears on the history page - I'd rather like to look at that to see where the non NPOV stuff came in! PaulHammond 16:22, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
PS - I'm not a Swedenbourg/Swedenborg expert - someone I know was just talking about how much they got out of his Heaven and Hell book and I looked him up and put in a redirect from the alternative spelling. I'll certainly have a go at copyediting it in a couple of days when I get time PaulHammond 16:22, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've made several changes. Will make several more now, and remove a lot, because the text basically still is as it was in the 1911 Brittish encyclopedia. Checked the edits from User:209.53.208.35. They are good in general. The only major edit he did was to add his beliefs in a last praragraph, and I changed them into something more appropriate. --Fred chessplayer 21:34, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have removed all theological material that came from the Brittish Encyclopedia and written it new. ---- (written 21 Jan)
The user User:209.53.208.35 has once again added in his own ideas. He also removed almost everything I added to the article. I would like an explaination of why he did it, in order to understand why he detested my material so much. Comments from other users will be appreciated too! --Fred chessplayer 12:35, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)----
It is disconcerting that User:209.53.208.35 won't register and enter into some kind of dialogue on the content of the article instead of just entering his/her own POV. A solution might be to take the page to Wikipedia:Peer review and ask for advice on the article. / up+land 11:57, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Peer review is good for other things (I just responded to Fred there), but for community input and advice on a serious conflict, the right place is Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Enter the article under the "Article content disputes" heading, with a short description. What makes this conflict serious is the anon's disinclination to use the talk page, not the anonymity as such, which it is his/her right to maintain, so if you do list the article on WP:RFC, I'd advise you to emphasize the refusal to discuss.--Bishonen | Talk 20:01, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Two recent anonymous edits to this page, probably from 68.231.66.176, were from me before I registered. (Sorry!) Based on a long connection with Swedenborgianism, I'm impressed with the richness and balance of this article. VOdhner 04:04, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks! Anonymous edits are not problematic per se, it is only problematic with obivously biased edits, and if users are anonymous they can avoid disussing it. --Fred-Chess 15:26, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Homosexual?
I've read elsewhere that he may have been homosexual, but find no mention of it here. Is it not accurate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.170.173 (talk) 00:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Nice edits, capitalized book titles
Very nice edits, Fred! The bit on Jesper is lovely now. I only have a problem with the "anatomical system where mental attributes correspond to body parts, such as worrying to the stomach", I don't understand it and the syntax kind of collapses. Btw, I capitalized the main words in all your book titles, which is the primary recommendation in the Manual of Style, but I have some doubts now I've slept on it. Your system was consistent and perfectly good in itself, do reinstate it if you prefer it, maybe it looks better. (The MoS explicitly accepts all academic styles, its specific recommendations are more meant to help people who aren't familiar with any style.)--Bishonen | Talk 09:56, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Edit conflicts
Hi! "The new guy messed up." That's me. I have tried to merge your edits back in, but please... could you go through it ...? Fred chessplayer 17:32, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- No worries, it looks fine, sorry if I edit conflicted you. I'm out of there for the day anyway, so go ahead and edit in peace. Are you really new? I mean, I know you are, but I thought you must have experience from sv.wiki. You're just too good at this for a bona fide newbie! Best, Bishonen | Talk 17:54, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] External links
Annotated external links are very helpful, but the Swedenborgian Church and the New Church links had annotationspam. We don't need telling that these communities are based on the teachings on Swedenborg (why else would they be here?), and we don't need anything that's obviously going to be only a click away (like the various versions of the names of the communities). Especially we don't need any repetition of facts prominently supplied in the article itself, like when Swedenborg lived and died, or that he was an 18th-century theologian (c'mon!). I've shortened these listings, retaining the useful parts. --Bishonen | talk 19:23, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
- No problem. I've really missed some constructive criticism. It seemed I could get away with almost anything. --Fred-Chess 19:28, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
The same thing applies to the http://thenewphilosophyonline.org/ and the "scholarly treatment of Swedenborg's sanity." Cuvtixo 22:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] an. edits 2
Bishonen expressed his/her worries, on a talk page that Uppland guided me to, that a new anonymous user might make pov edits. This is not really a problem. The last edit was not wrong, as expressed in the "Claims of Veracity". The edit may not be true, but can't be discarded – Whether Sw. experienced a crisis or a Close Encounter with the Lord is something which the authors are still debating. We can't assume that he did not have a close encounter with the Lord unless we can certainly assert there is no God or that Sw. was a madman. I hope the rest of the article makes the POV's clear so that the intro itself is not the final word. --Fred-Chess 11:27, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
- Whether it was a spiritual or a psychological crisis, it was still a personal crisis (decisive turning point in his life, and likely emotionally stressful, if not an unstable condition). That is why I removed the "extreme encounters with God" which is not a very encyclopedic term, and replaced the previous "psychological crisis" with the more neutral "psychological-spiritual crisis", which covers both points of view. --Blainster 17:43, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Peer review again?
I think it is time for this article to be taken to peer review again, but as I have not really contributed anything except minor details, I don't want to be the one taking the final step in doing so. up+land 19:24, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
- I have felt that the article is still in somewhat of a state of undress. The threat of inviting more critical eyes inspired me to do some re-organizing. There were things like a paragraph about his diet stuck under Psychic abilities, which was in turn listed under Scientific contributions. I attempted to rearrange things so they made more sense, and do a little more copyediting so we wouldn't be embarassed by the expert editors around here. IMHO, it is much closer to being presentable now, but it could still use (at minimum) a careful look at how to divide events of his scientific life between the Biography and Accomplishments sections. Feel free to weigh in with anything else. And thanks to Bishonen for the kind words. --Blainster 23:21, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
- I feel this entry is completely lacking in regard to Swedenborg's actual impact on Victorian culture; but I wanted to register my sentiments here before editing the entry. In the first place, Swedenborg's visions of communication with angels largely laid the foundation for that great spiritual pandemic known as spiritualism. Because of the importance of spiritualism in Victorian life, this deserves a serious look. As if that weren't enough, several biographies of Ralph Waldo Emerson seem to suggest that Swedenborg's ideas on sexuality were even more influential. It's currently believed that both Charles Fourier and Wolfgang Goethe were inspired by Swedenborg's notion of "spiritual affinities" (which Goethe called "Elective Affinities"). In a world in which the pressure to marry young was high and the social penalties for that failure known as "divorce" were even more onerous, the notion that one might be tethered by a higher law to one's true "spiritual affinity" outside marriage exerted for many an irresistable attraction. Moreover, Swedenborg's assertion that souls were essentially androgynous fascinated a society that struggled with harsh, iron-clad gender roles. Emerson, for instance (a mystic who was nontheless also a rational Freethought philosopher), hotly rejected spiritualism, and never gave any indication that he believed Swedenborg actually spoke with heavenly visitors. It follows that Emerson and some of his liberal contemporaries actually reverenced Swedenborg's "spiritual affinities" and spiritual androgyny. 70.59.148.221 22:27, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Although it appears to be mostly speculations, you are free to write what you want. Also see Swedenborgianism for related info. Fred-Chess 02:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I'm sorry, but "Swedenborg's assertion that souls were essentially androgynous" really confuses me. That souls have distinct gender and that the afterlife is one that includes regular marital relations between men and women is essential to Swedenborg's whole theology. In what works did he assert that souls were androgynous? --Mac 13:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sound file
The sound file is fine and correct, and I appreciate it.
However, Swedenborg is an international character, he is the internationally most read Swedish 18t-century author next to Linneaus, and his name is probably pronounced in a different way in the Swedenborgian Churches in the United States and by the 50,000 followers worldwide. (His works were also translated first to English I think, and first later into Swedish?)
Taking into account that this is English Wiki, I'm not sure the sound file is necessary?
Welcome to explain your thoughts, Karmosin.
--Fred-Chess 21:31, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Further reading
I found these on the web
UNESCO has launched the Memory of the World Programme to guard against collective amnesia calling upon the preservation of the valuable archive holdings and library collections all over the world ensuring their wide dissemination.
One of 3 nominations from Sweden are Sw. libray. The intro follows:
Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772) is one of the internationally best known of Swedish writers. After a successful career as a scientist and a technician he went through a religious crisis in the 1740's, which ended in a revelation commanding him to devote the rest of his life to interpreting the Holy Scripture and reporting what he had seen and heard in the world of spirits and angels. In obedience to this divine task, he spent his last twenty-five years writing a great number of books, in which he attempted restoring the internal sense of the Biblical Word, as he understood it. After his death in 1772, his manuscripts, some 20 000 pages, were donated by his heirs to the Royal Academy of Sciences in Stockholm, of which Swedenborg was a member. It is one of the biggest existing collections of manuscripts from the 18th century, and besides one of the very few in modern times that has served as the basis for a new Christian church. Swedenborg's message has found many receivers all over the world, and at least some of them look upon his manuscripts as relics. Because of their holy status many of the papers were also reproduced in a photolithographic edition as early as around 1870 by American and British Swedenborg congregations, and the technique was then used for the first time on a large scale. There are still quite a few Swedenborg societies and churches extant, particularly in the United States and the United Kingdom. Some of these are translating and publishing his writings in new editions. http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_ID=16191&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html
(Good, our article isn't completely off...)
And there is a "photo" section related to the nomination: http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_ID=16196&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=-459.html I'm not going to take any images these without asking for permission however -- also they might have larger copies of them, and think they might be willing to contribute.
--Fred-Chess 03:56, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] about in text references
If some sections are doubtful or you want to know exact references about who claims what, just write it here, and I will try to add it to the article.
--Fred-Chess 18:06, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] bust images
For the record, i don't like the bust of Sweden; see now reason why it should be in the article, but will leave it there out of respect for the uploader.
--Fred-Chess June 29, 2005 19:00 (UTC)
[edit] Phrenology
I am considering inserting something on the theft of his skull by a phrenologist. My sources are not totally infallible, so I am here to ask if anyone can confirm that he was headrustled. --Adamrush 6 July 2005 00:58 (UTC)
[edit] Coffee Talk
It is possible for an etiologist to infer that Swedenborg's mystical pronouncements were "just the coffee talking."Lestrade 13:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
[edit] Just Some Confirmation of the Article
sorry if i'm doing this wrong. i've read plenty from the wikipedia website, but never tried to comment before. anyways, I thought this was a subject which i may be credible in, and while I don't really have much to add, I thought I might as well go ahead and confirm some things. the reason I feel I am credible, is that I have been raised Swedenborgian (funny, i actually don't know how that's spelled) and am currently attending school in a Swedenborgian (New Church) Highschool.
There are just a few things I would like to comment on: First of all the sound file was... well I'm not going to call it wrong, because i've never heard it articulated by an actual Swedish person, but it's certainly not pronounced in any way i've ever heard. The way i've always said it was just as you might expect by sounding it out: I(pronounced the same way as the "i" in "big")-manuel(like a manuel you read) Sweden(like the country)-borg(like the aliens or whatever the borg is... maybe i should look that up on wikipedia. i know i've heard it before.) not that the pronunciation matters at all, but i thought i'd clarify before someone said it like that and made themself sound silly.
As an ending note: I see nothing that conflicts between the teachings i've learned and the way it's been written here, and i'm fairly certain the author was a Swedenborian like myself, or atleast grew up in a New Church community as i have (judging from their accuracy and their screen name). On that note i'll go back to my homework (i'm studying swedenborg's flying machine incase you're interested. There was an article about it on Wikipedia last i checked.)
- While I'm not Swedish and my knowledge of Swedish is very superficial, the pronunciation in the OGG file is precisely what I would have assumed it to be in today's Swedish. Of course, it's entirely likely that Swedenborg pronounced it a bit differently, as IIRC Swedish has had some particularly dramatic evolution in the last few hundred years (at least as compared with English and French, for example). Tkinias 20:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] GA Promotion
I have recently reviewed the article & found that it fulfills the criterion for being a good article. So I have promoted it to GA status. My congratulations to all the article's contributers for doing a fine job.
Cheers
Srikeit(talk ¦ ✉) 01:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Lord", "Lord Jesus Christ", etc.
The article is filled with the above religious phrasing and in addition capitalizes "His" and "Him" in reference to deity. I've added an NPOV tag so that someone who has time can remove all this religiosity and piousness. JadedKat 11:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- That is not the right tag. I will restore to previous version. Please select a different tag from Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup or Wikipedia:Template messages/Maintenance. / Fred-Chess 15:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] intelligence
it doesnt talk about his extremely high IQ and him becoming mad in his later life.
Why do you think he was mad? There are no signs of this other than the fact that he experienced what many would call delusional hallucinations, but his explanations of what he experienced remain quite solidly grounded in sanity and reason. If you beleive the spiritual world exists there is no reason to think that he went crazy. Jasonschnarr 17:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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- IQs weren't measured until the twentieth century. Previous to that time, the concept didn't exist.Lestrade 17:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
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[edit] Reasons for GA Delisting
This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of 'What is a Good Article?', which states;
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- (b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page).
LuciferMorgan 00:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- I have now added inline citations, and I've rewritten large parts of the article, including the lead section. / Fred-Chess 14:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Image
Inserting image here temporarily.
Fred-Chess 15:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Who keeps changing "Swedenborg" entry?
I am perplexed as to why the edits I make are hours later undone and returned to the old article... For instance, "Emanuel" is not spelt "Emmanuel". I correct that and it is returned to the incorrect spelling. I added THE ANGEL FESTIVAL to the list of outside links and it is removed. The Angel Festival was created because of what Swedenborg wrote about angels. This is a major Southern California festival and would be fascinating to readers of Swedenborg. [1] Why is it removed from the article? Other small changes I have made as well. CandaceFrazee 19:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- In what way would the Angel Festival be of interes for casual readers of this article? Is the Angel Festival mentioned somewhere in the article text? There are thousands of pages on the internet about Swedenborg that would be interesting in one way or another, I do not see why the Angel Festival should be more interesting that those.
- Fred-Chess 21:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Dear "Fred Chess",
Is that your name or are you a Fred that likes chess?
Are you employed by Widipedia to monitor and edit articles about Sweden? I understand from your user data that you are living in Sweden. If I am wrong, please info me where you live. If you are an official from Wikipedia, then we need to have a more open dialogue. What is your email address and your office phone number? If you are not on staff with Wikipedia, I will then ask that you and I take my comments to arbitration, because I do not agree with your stopping me from making changes to the Swedenborg entry. Are you a Swedenborg expert as I am?
While there are many websites that are about or include Swedenborg, how many of them have tried to put their websites on this Swedenborg page as I have with http://www.theangelfestival.com? The Angel Festival is an important item for the Wikipedia Swedenborg entry because a festival was created for Swedenborg and his findings! That's a big deal! Did you take the time to visit our website? The Swedenborg Booth at this festival is visited by hundreds and they can purchase Swedenborg's books there as well as pick up tens of free pamphlets, brochures, newsletters, flyers, etc. about the man.
The fact that a festival was created because of Swedenborg makes him current and not a figure for history buffs to argue about.
I will make more changes to the Wikipedia Swedenborg entry at another time and trust that they will stay. If they are removed, I will take them to arbitration. Just because a book can be quoted, does not necessarily mean that that fact is correct. That's my job - I make sure facts about Swedenborg are correct. If you would like me to mail you some back issues of my SILA newsletter, I will. Postal mail only.
Thinking of you, Candace Frazee, Madam Chair of SILA (Swedenborg Information of Los Angeles) P.O. Box 273, Pasadena, California, 91102 USA.
- You are welcome to discuss any significant changes that you make to the structure of the article. That you are an official of SILA does not mean you have the authority to decide how an Wikipedia article will look.
- I am not an official of Wikipedia. There are very few employees of Wikipedia.
- Fred-Chess 17:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Hi, I am from Third opinion, I would like to tell CandaceFrazee that Wikipedia is ran by it's editors, a group of administrators(with no extra authority), and Wikipedia:Policy. While the foundation does have a few employees they do not regularly govern the site, except in extrordinary circumstances.
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- That being said, editors are encourages to discuss matters and avoid original research. Personal credentials are not generally excepted unless you can refer to published work by a reliable source to back up you statement. This is in line with our goal in creating an encyclopedia.
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- After looking at the link I don't think it provides much encyclopedic information about Emanual Swedenborg, the subject of the article. I don't think it is relevent here.
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- Also, when you said how many of them have tried to put their websites on this Swedenborg page, did you mean to imply that you are personally involved with this site? If so I think you should look over our conflict of interest policy. If I misunderstood, pleaase forgive me. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 18:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] GA Re-nomination
- Swedenborg's father was a minister it appears? This isn't readily apparent.
- the most liberal place in Europe for philosophical discussion and freedom of speech---needs to be cited or deleted.
- fix the links in the quotes at the end.
Some minor things, but cleaned up the reason for delisting.Balloonman 04:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where you want this listed as a GA, so I'm leaving it up to you to classify it.Balloonman 04:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
How do you re-list it as a good article?
[edit] Change of name
It was common in Sweden during the 17th and 18th centuries for the children of bishops to receive this honour (ennoblement) as a recognition of the services of the father. The family name was changed from Swedberg to Swedenborg. There is a weak implication here (due to proximity) that part of the process of Swedish ennoblement involves changing the family name. If that is so, please state it explicitly - "As part of this honor, the family name...". Otherwise, someone please explain why the family name was changed, and explain that in a relevant section.
[edit] Trinity in lead
I don't think Swedenborg's idea of the trinity should be mentioned in the lead. It does nothing to summarize the article's content, and I don't think most people would find it fundamental to know his view on the trinity. / Fred-Chess 16:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- You're right. The paragraph I added didn't really summarize anything. It was too little to be a paragraph in the lead. I happen to think that "too little" is better than "nothing," but others disagree and are welcome to do so. A Christian's Christology might be considered weighty enough in its own right, but not necessarily. In any event, I took a crack at a real summary. What do you think? Jonathan Tweet 21:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Automatic addition of "class=GA"
A bot has added class=GA to the WikiProject banners on this page, as it's listed as a good article. If you see a mistake, please revert, and leave a note on the bot's talk page. Thanks, BOT Giggabot (talk) 05:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bilocation
I've often read that Swedenborg exhibited bilocation. Is this just something that people said about him with no actual evidence to back it up, or were any documented cases? Google confirms the rumours, but I couldn't find any details of an actual case.-- JackofOz (talk) 08:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
- The article mentions such an account, I believe. Search for "Gothenburg" in the article. I am however not aware of any other such incidents of Swedenborg.
- Fred-J 19:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
