Talk:Edward VIII abdication crisis
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[edit] Alternative Views
Has anyone editing this article read Susan Williams' book, 'The People's King: The True Story of the Abdication' (2003)? I have also come across several other books from the time, which strongly supported the King and were critical of the role played by Baldwin and his allies in the crisis. It seems to me that this article does not take a balanced view in that it is critical of the King and Mrs Simpson, but does not offer as a counterpoint some of the dissenting views of the time, and of more recent historians such as Williams. I personally found her case to be convincing.
The role played by Churchill in attempting to forma 'King's Party' is also an interesting aspect of the story.
- I might also add that the opposition Labor Party in Australia and certain members of the conservative United Australia Party were strongly opposed to the King's abdication, so the picture presented by Baldwin to the King of a universal opposition by the dominions was not the full picture. I understand the advice released in 2003 from the New Zealand government was also keen to avoid abdication. -Aronpaul, 21/2/06
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- I saw a BBC documentary on this last night, and in the light of that I find this article to be very poor treatment on a number of fronts. There is no mention of the groundswell of public support for Edward that arose when the crisis was finally revealed to British public, to the fact that it was largely the establishment and the establishment alone that opposed the marriage (the editor of the Times and the Archbishop of Canterbury in particuliar were both key figures who go unmentioned here) or to Baldwin's dishonest presentation to the King of the Dominions' opinions on the matter (Canada and Ireland stayed on the fence, while Australia supported the King, yet Baldwin presented the opposition as unanimous).
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- Churchill's key role, the various meetings and negotiations between the King and Baldwin and the Kings visit to Wales (specifically the timing of the visit) are also all underplayed. The article is clearly unbalanced and dwells far too much on the various scurrilous rumours against Ms. Simpson (though they absolutely should be mentioned, it should be in a far more measured and contextualised way - not with some "hearsay" proviso added on seemingly as an afterthought).
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- Most egregiously of all the passage "Given the content of the speech, and what it reveals about his disdainful attitude towards the British constitution, it is small surprise that many judge Edward VIII's abdication a "lucky break" for both Britain and the House of Windsor which preserved the political neutrality of the Crown. His own Assistant Private Secretary, Alan Lascelles, said of Edward: The best thing that could happen to him would be for him to break his neck." displays plainly the bias which, in more subtly disguised form, permeates this article.
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- There is a suggestion here that this article has the makings of "a solid encyclopaedic resource". As currently presented, I could not object more strongly. Hueysheridan 10:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I would rather claim that it is the program which distorted the events:
1. Churchill's so-called "King's Party" was a dismal failure, and is only considered important now because of Churchill's subsequent career as Prime Minister. On the Monday after the story broke in the British press MPs returned to Parliament after having spent the weekend in their contituencies gauging public opinion. Churchill was the only MP supporting the King. Everyone else who had initially supported him withdrew their support in the face of the overwhelming opposition they encountered from their constituents.
2. The majority of letters received by Baldwin and the King were unequivocally against the marriage. The program only reported the minority of letters written in support. Some estimates put the number of against letters at 95% compared to 5% in favor.
3. According to most of the sources I have read, the official Labor party in Australia did not support the marriage, it was a only particular small bunch of left-wing members that did so.
4. The program reported that Canada and New Zealand were in favor of the marriage. You say that Australia supported the marriage. As I set out below, and is set out in Ziegler and Bradford and Beaverbrook and Baldwin and Taylor and Broad and Monckton and the papers in the Public Record Office (and those in the dominion records), this is absolutely not the case.
In summary, the "groundswell of support" did not exist, and it is the program which misrepresents the Dominion's replies rather than Baldwin. DrKiernan 12:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Indeed, one resource as compared against another - which bear in mind was presented in populist media in a prime-time slot - does not necessarily denigrate this article's achievements. Granted, it presents one side of the story more heavily than others but the point of a peer review is, inter alia, to knock it into neutral shape. As a resource it is an undeniably useful starting point for the casual reader reviewing the subject. Hueysheridan, you could always be bold and make those edits you view necessary Dick G 15:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Regarding the number of abdications:
Mary Queen of Scots, John Balliol, Edward II and Richard II were forced to abdicate, James II was "deemed to have abdicated" (And there are probably others, so I think it's best to not use an explicit number.)
Edward VIII's abdication was different in that it actually was a choice. He wasn't told he had to abdicate, he was told he wouldn't be permitted to marry Mrs. Simpson unless he did. --- Someone else 23:13 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
Good clarification.JTD 23:23 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Declassified Files
Top secret files, which originally were embargoed for 100 years (until 2036) have just been released by the British Public Records Office. I've included details, taken from the British Daily Mail newspaper, which ran a four page spread today (Jan 30). I've deliberately included references to the rumours surrounding Wallace Simpson, because though distasteful, they contextualise what happened, explaining why the British establishment saw Simpson as so unsuited to be a royal consort. A lot of the rumours were scurillous but they did form the background to the image Wallace had. Without them, a reader of this article would not understand the full strength of opposition to Wallace. It wasn't that she was American, or even simply that she was divorced. She was perceived as a 'man-eater' who had gone through two husbands and numerous lovers. Claims that she was a hermaphrodite or a lesbian indicate the urban myths that were attaching to the King's mistress, again another reason (even if they were untrue) that would have made the establishment absolutely determined to block a marriage. JTD 21:29 Jan 30, 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Academic Tone
It doesn't seem proper to refer to Mrs. Simpson as "Wallis," which this article does throughout. I recommend refering to her by her surname throughout. Notcarlos 17:26, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] More Explanation and Chronology needed
I think this article stands to be substantially rewritten and needs a better introduction explaining the events. A chronology would help. Also, a discussion of the media aspect and Edward's longstanding relationship with Mrs Simpson before hand. Also perhaps Freda Dudley Ward. -Aronpaul
- I totally agree. Along with not giving any background information, the article never actually gives an explanation of how the abdication came about-- all the meetings between Edward VIII and Baldwin, or the numerous Cabinet meetings, everything that happened from late October '36 onwards. The material here is interesting and could be included, but there is far too little description of the actual event- the kind of information an encyclopedia should have. I've read a lot on the subject but don't have a lot of time to edit now-- regardless, the whole thing needs an overhaul. TysK 05:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Crystal Palace
Burnt down on 29 November 1936
[edit] Title of article
IMHO, Abdication Crisis of Edward VIII >> should be Abdication crisis of Edward VIII or, better yet, Edward VIII abdication crisis. Any other thoughts? jengod 01:47, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- I agree, Edward VIII abdication crisis is probably the best name.Kevin M Marshall 01:51, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Ascension after abdication
A recent documentary ("The Queen's Lost Uncle", 07/12/06) said, and I quote, "The urgent question now was - who would replace [Edward] as king? As Edward had abdicated, and not died, in theory, any one of his brothers could now ascend the throne..." Is this statement at all true? – DBD does... 01:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- No and Yes. No, because Prince Albert, Duke of York was heir presumptive and first-in-line-to-the-throne. Yes, because the throne is not hereditary but bestowed by Parliament, and so anyone can be offered it (such as for example, Oliver Cromwell (who declined) or George I of Great Britain (who accepted)). There is no law covering abdication, which is why one had to be passed (see His Majesty's Declaration of Abdication Act 1936). Presumably, the basis for linking abdication with a change in the succession is that, historically, abdicated kings were not succeeded by their direct heirs (see Henry IV of England and Richard II of England; and James II of England). If Parliament had decided to follow this supposed precedent they could have passed an amendment to the 1936 act, or a new law, choosing another brother over Albert. DrKiernan 08:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Peer review
This article appears now to have the makings of a solid encyclopaedic resource. Is it time for it to be peer reviewed, and if so, what is the appropriate channel/category? Dick G 13:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- I approve of peer review but would like to see the six [citation needed] markers replaced with references or the comments they refer to removed before review. DrKiernan 14:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- Got it down to two markers... Dick G 17:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] New Zealand’s position on the abdication
Susan Williams’ recent re-interpretation of New Zealand’s response to Baldwin’s telegram which was examined in her BBC documentary (look in the credits where she is listed as Consultant) is disputed:
1. New Zealand was neither in favor of nor against the morganatic marriage. The Prime Minister of New Zealand (Michael Joseph Savage) did not actually define his views in his reply to Baldwin’s telegram, which was more in the way of a string of discussion points rather than a definitive answer. This has been known since at least the 1960s and is not new information. See for example A. J. P. Taylor’s edition of Lord Beaverbrook’s memoir page 62 and Ziegler's biography page 307.
2. The actual document used as evidence for her theory is shown on screen during her documentary – close examination of the screen shot shows that the words "if a morganatic marriage is possible" (or similar) can be seen. The key words here are "if possible". Baldwin’s firm view was that it was not possible.
3. As Baldwin did not get the answer he required from Savage, he demanded further clarification of the New Zealand Government’s position from a New Zealand Minister currently resident in London. The Minister gave Baldwin the assurance he desired that the marriage would not be supported.
4. Savage was Catholic, and consequently unlikely to support personally the remarriage of a divorced woman (or indeed her divorce in the first place).
5. The New Zealand press was almost universally hostile to the marriage. See for example Broad, pages 105-106. DrKiernan 07:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Negus
Oxford English Dictionary (Sept 2003 edition):
Negus: (The title of) a king of Ethiopia or of a province or kingdom within Ethiopia; spec. (the title of) the supreme ruler of Ethiopia; the Ethiopian emperor.
1594 T. BLUNDEVILLE Descr. Plancius his Mappe in Exercises f. 265v, The Emperor of Æthiopia.., his owne subiects doe call him Acegue, and Neguz. 1613 S. PURCHAS Pilgrimage VII. i. 549 The Great Neguz his titles comprehend thus much [etc.]. 1664 S. BUTLER Hudibras II. i. 18 The Negus, when some mighty Lord Or Potentate's to be restor'd [etc.]. 1667 MILTON Paradise Lost XI. 397 Th' Empire of Negus to his utmost Port. c1718 R. FRAMPTON Life (1876) 114 The King of that countryis stiled the Nechos. 1805 R. SOUTHEY in C. C. Southey Life & Corr. R. Southey (1849) II. 314 The king, or, to give him his proper title, the Neguz. 1865 Lit. Churchman 25 Mar. 124/2 That strange compound of intelligence and savagery the Negus Theodore II. 1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 93/1 Siefu, brother of Haeli Melicoth, proclaimed himself negus of Shoa at Ankober. 1939 Fortune Nov. 121/1 The Cabinet..was in no mood to fight to save the Negus's throne. 2000 B. J. C. MCKERCHER in J. M. Nielson Paths not Taken iii. 85 Italy would get control of most of Abyssinia while the Negus, Haile Selassie, would retain nominal sovereignty over his kingdom.
Please check your facts before correcting me. DrKiernan 12:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Wikipedia: Good article
I wrote everything I could in the Peer Review, and it was good even before responding to my comments. Well done. I think I'd support it for Featured Article, even. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 19:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- By the way, I put it under History/World History/Europe on the WP:GA page, and that's not necessarily the best place for it; arguably as Emperor, he affected more than just Europe. Feel free to move it to a better place. Maybe History/Royalty ? --AnonEMouse (squeak) 19:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Baldwin's interest?
I don't see reference to the school of analysis that holds that Baldwin saw the crisis as a way to get rid of Edward. I have seen several references to the notion that Edward, who was popular with workers after interventionist comments in a few strikes, was also an admirer of continental fascism/nazism -- not in the sense of racist ideology, but here meant more as in the strong-handed reconstruction of society. So, some say as I have read, that Edward had ideas about parlaying his popularity into an expanded role for the king in government and reasserting the role of the sovereign in national policy. Baldwin wasn't happy about that, and saw Edward as a threat to the established constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy he was hoping to stabilize in that turbulent era. Thus, forcing the abdication crisis, on moral grounds, was a way for him to dump Edward in favor of his more constitutionally traditional younger brother. Perhaps there should be some reference to this point of view here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.168.64.130 (talk) 01:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Anyone note the irony here?
One of the arguments made against Edward VIII's desire to marry Simpson was that as head of the Anglican Church he could not marry a divorced woman whose ex-husbands were still living. Seems to be the very definition of irony, since the Anglican Church was established by Henry VIII for the precise reason of being able to marry who he pleased (specifically so he could marry Anne Boleyn despite the Catholic Church's refusal to recognize the King's divorce of Katherine of Aragon). I wonder if this irony has been noted by any notable, reliable source... if so seems worthy of inclusion in the article. 75.70.123.215 04:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Controversial alternative view
[1] Perhaps this could be integrate, albeit in a more NPOV manner? † DBD 20:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Modern Parallel Biased
The modern part about Camilla and Charles appears to have been written by a Buckingham Palace PR man. It makes no real criticism of the hypocrisy of the future Head of the Church of England getting married in a civil ceremony rather than by the Church, certainly not the same thing as a blessing by the Church afterward. It says that polls show widespread support for the marriage of Camilla and Charles, but the cite given is a book. Just what poll is this? Do other polls show the same thing? Seems terribly fawning to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.151.182 (talk) 18:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC) So, cite another source that says something different. Don't simply add your own point of view, and commentary Mayalld (talk) 07:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Religious grounds
Surely under canon law, a civil marriage is not valid anyway. So regardless of whether Mrs Simpson had been married before and regardless of whether Mrs Simpson had not annuled her marriages but divorced, then surely Mrs. Simpson was not validly married under canon law. Therefore, any religious marriage she would later partake in would be a valid marriage under canon law and would make her eligable to become Queen. The political implications (given that civil law is a legal there was no hindrance to any subsequent remarriage.
- Her first marriage to Win Spencer was a religious one: at the Protestant Episcopal Christ Church in Baltimore. Her second marriage, clearly, was civil because under canon law you can't have a "second" religious marriage if your first spouse is still living. Her divorces were civil. Hence, in canon law, her second and third marriages might be considered bigamous because her first marriage was still valid. DrKiernan (talk) 10:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
