Talk:Dutch influence on German
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[edit] Accuracy dispute
I have no problems with the basic statement of the article. But I find the mentioned examples poorly researched. I quick cross check with Grimm's Deutsches Wörterbuch (DWB) yields the following:
Abstand - OK
Bollwerk - seems wrong: 15th century quotation, H. Sachs, Nuremberg
Wörterbuch - OK
Mittelpunkt - seems wrong: documented since the 13th century
Mittellinie - Maybe. Dutch cognate not explicitly mentioned. Earliest quotation from Kant.
Dreieck - OK
Brandung - OK
Dünung - Not in DWB
Pumpe - seems wrong: word is derived from French “pompe”. “Detour” via Dutch implausible.
Pottfisch (not in use anymore, should be "Pottwal") - OK.
Hai - unclear: introduced into high German in the 18th century. Cognates mentioned: Dutch "Haai", Danish "Hai" and Swedish "Haj".
Makrele - doubtful: of French origin. DWB reads “…hat sich wol von daher [Frankreich] verbreitet”; my translation: “… seems to have spread from there [France]”.
For the disputed examples, can you please either substanciate the claim or drop the example?
Your reference to the influence on Berlin dialect seems by and large ok. I am not an expert on the dialect of the region but the reference to "Ick" seems implausible to me. Berlin is clearly north of the famous "Ick/Ich" divide. Your footnote seems too weak an expanation. Can you sustanciate this further?
You mention Dutch immigration into Brandenburg invited by the "Margrave of Brandenburg". This is too vague as there were margraves of Brandenburg from the 12the century onwards. Do you refer to the reigns of Elector Frederick William (the "Great Elector") of Brandenburg and King Frederick I of Prussia? Berndf 20:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry there for the extremely late responds, I seem to have missed you. Okay here we go, the main source also exists in a German edition, I'm not sure if it's identical, though I assume it is (Frau Antje und Herr Mustermann) I'll try to substantiate as much as I can. As for some examples; Pumpe may have entered German trough French, but it entered French from Dutch. The same goes for Makrele, likey it entered German from French, but it entered French from German. This is both substantiated by the WDNT and etimonline. For the others, I can only say the book makes it very clear they are from Dutch, I can't account for sporadic earlier use. For the margraves I refer to the ones of the 16th century.Rex 16:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am with you on "Pumpe". -- Not entirely on "Makrele": That the French "maquereau" is of Germanic origin is accepted but it is difficult to tell from which of the Germanic vernaculars of the Franconian Empire it originated and it would be at any rate difficult to speak of German and Dutch languages as of this time. Berndf 16:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
- I am not sure about the Berlin dialect. "ick" and "ooch" are standard feature in Northern German dialects (eg Low German "ik" and "ok") Does this mean Dutch people brought these (very basic) features to all Low German dialects (one of which is the Berlin dialect)? Since Low German developed parallel to Dutch and (High) German, this sounds unlikely to me. -- megA 18:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I am with you on "Pumpe". -- Not entirely on "Makrele": That the French "maquereau" is of Germanic origin is accepted but it is difficult to tell from which of the Germanic vernaculars of the Franconian Empire it originated and it would be at any rate difficult to speak of German and Dutch languages as of this time. Berndf 16:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Proven wrong
The Dutch influence on German article looks like a heap of crap to me. Note the word list above - the given (scientific) reference does say for a good part of them that one can not find a relation to Dutch. Why would one put it up here if one can easily look up the scientific views on it? Does the text have any good foundation? The article is lost at the point when "inventing" links to the Berlin dialect - out of nothing but words that happen to have an equal sound. Being born in Berlin and having some (scientific) books about the dialect I can only shudder in disgust. The two examples "ooch" and "koofen" are simply the result of a generic (!) vowel exchange in the Berlin dialect that makes High German "au" into Berlin "oo", therefore "kaufen" -> "koofen", "auch" -> "ooch", like it is for a few thousand other words. The ick/ich line has been already mentioned above. Last not least, Dutch is in large parts in a dialect continuum with other Low German dialects - unless one does have a real reference one can take most "influence of Dutch" or "influence of Low German" to be usually the same thing.
So, what's left for this article? Does it really have anything more to say than the obvious case that neighbouring lands with a similar language from the same language continuum were able to influence each other? Where's the news? Guidod (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
