Talk:Dublin

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	Dublin was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 26, 2006 Good article nominee Listed September 18, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted Current Status: Delisted good article

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Contents 1 Crime 2 Sport 3 Irish name 4 Map icons for sister cities 5 Motto 6 Achival 7 Sister city format 8 More on Sister Cities 9 Multicultural Dublin 10 Where is/was the black pool 11 Industry and economy (Section 7.3) 12 IPA wrong 13 confusion 14 Name section and first image 15 Sister cities 16 GA delisted 17 "There are significant social divisions between the coastal suburbs in the east of the city, including those on the Northside, and the newer developments further to the west." ?? 18 Old Norse pronunciation of Dyflinn 19 Separating "Economy of Dublin" to wholly separate article 20 Cathedral links added 21 Second City 22 Fear city-fair city

[edit] Crime

Where is the section about Dublin's crime problems? Especially as regards gangs, particular estates/areas that are almost no-go, and recent high profile incidents (shootings, tiger kidnappings, gang feuds, drive-bys, etc). There was even an incident of a car chase and shooting (while driving) on the M50 a number of months back - like something out of an action movie.

Unsurprisingly, Limerick's Wikipedia article already has a detailed "Crime" section.

zoney ♣ talk 18:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Zoney, there isn't any crime in Dublin. So not much point in having a crime section. All that shooting is just high spirits. (Sarah777 23:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC))

No crime in dublin? What about the apprentice plumber shot dead because he "was in the wrong place at the wrong time"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.88.12 (talk • contribs)

yip, there is no crime in Dublin. Check the meeja - all reported crime is in either Limerick or Gangland. Dublin is safe. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 16:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree fully with the previous comment; there is a very serious crime problem in both Limerick and Gangland.

Try explaining your light hearted comments to the family of Anthony Campbell the apprentice plumber who was unwittingly caught up in the sickening cycle of violence. Also nothing about Veronica Guerin.

Veronica Guerin? Bastun 15:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

A Crime section has now been added. While some is excellent, I've removed some parts of it, which were plainly PoV. Southside inner-city areas were just as ravaged by the heroin epidemic as northside (e.g., Rialto, Dolphin's Barn, Crumlin) - and there were many anti-drugs marches on the northside too. Bastun 17:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sport

Shamrock Rovers are not from Milltown, but from Ringsend. RedsIndependent.com 01:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

But their ground Glenmalure Park was at Milltown from the 1920s until the late 1980s, so there is a 60+ year connection to MIllitown. ww2censor 17:55, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish name

anybody tell me how the irish name for dublin is Baile Atha Cliath when the name dublin comes from the irish Dubh Linn meaning blackpool

It's in the article. See the "name" section.

Dublin - Name. "the more common name for the city in modern Irish is 'Baile Átha Cliath' ('The Town of the Ford of the Reed Hurdles'), which refers to the settlement, founded in 988 by High King Mael Sechnaill II, that adjoined the town of Dubh Linn proper at the Black Pool."

Guliolopez 04:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map icons for sister cities

As regards the current disputes regarding which flag icons to use for sister cities, I want to point out that there's been a more extensive discussion at Talk:Vancouver. --A bit iffy 11:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

My personal preference is what they have done at Kiev: a simple list in the Infobox: no countries or WP:FLAGS! These are, after all, very much local arrangements, between individual local government bodies. Twinning is a trivial point, and ought not to be splogged across the main text of the article. These sections have been systematically targetted by certain users and their IP sockpuppets for many months now - a total waste of everybody's time. --Mais oui! 11:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I do like that, Mais oui!. I have to admit I do like the prettiness of the flag icons, but the Kiev solution is a whole lot cleaner, more ordered and uses much less screen "real estate". I think I've changed my mind now as a result — cheers! --A bit iffy 11:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

... de rien... --Mais oui! 11:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Mais oui! I agree that this constant churn over flags with relation to sister cities is a "storm in a tea cup", and that - as you say - the arrangements are local and (in a way) not necessarily relevant to the national context of the cities involved. As a result, if you were to move the sister cities to the info boxes for Dublin (and possibly Cork and Limerick where this also appears to be [strangely] contentious), then I would support that change. Guliolopez 12:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• Mais Out!, I'd like to now why you are reverting the flags of the sovereign state of the United Kingdom to 'state' flags of England, Scotland and Wales. This appears to be pushing a separatist agenda. It's also non-balanced, as you won't allow the British flag in this case, but allow the Spanish flag for Barcelona in Catalonia, which is a state with a far larger separatist desire than any of Scotland, Wales or England. Please explain why you must revert these flags.Enzedbrit 05:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The above illustrates why getting rif of all the flags is a good idea! Bastun 10:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Getting rid of user:Mais oui! would be an even better idea! He has a POV agenda that he pushes obsessively (just see how many "contributions" he makes per day) to the detriment of the Wikipedia project. Many knowlegable contributers have given up contributing because they had better things to do with their lives than put up with his barrage of attacks, abuse and destructive editing.

Please assume good faith and observe the policy on no personal attacks. Please also log in with an account and sign your posts with four tildes. Bastun 14:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The time for assuming good faith is long past when it comes to user:Mais oui!. He has a long history of this behaviour. Logged-in users who have criticised user:Mais oui! have been monitored by him and had their contributions constantly reverted or destructively edited by him. In the end many have given up contributing to Wikipedia - a sad loss for the project.

Perhaps the editor attacking User: Mais oui! might do us the courtesy of signing his/her rather strong comments? (Sarah777 06:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC))

It is 81.153.151.56 (talk · contribs), one of 80 IP sockpuppets of Mallimak (talk · contribs). --Mais oui! 08:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Motto

A citation was requested for the recent translation of the city motto. Instead of providing a reference, because there is none to be found, and though a better translation may be preferred by some Latin scholars, I have reverted the English version of the motto to that provided by the Dublin City Council with an appropriate reference. Who are we to state a different translation than the council itself, this, at least is verifiable. ww2censor 13:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Achival

Sorry, forgot to add Achival to the Summary Edit (So its not vandalism, lol) --Ferdia O'Brien 15:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sister city format

So - should Barcelona be the only city not to follow the

• (cityname)(autonomous region/prefecture/state if appropriate)(country)

format? User:Seaned seems determined that Spain not be included as the country where one would expect to find Barcelona. On my talk page, he responded to me to say "Oh no not this again" - which is odd for a 4-day-old account. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 17:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

We have been through this before. If he does it again you should enforce the 3RR rule. This could be a Sockpuppet. ww2censor 17:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More on Sister Cities

A note on Dublin's "twinning" with Emmetsberg, Iowa (pop <4000) was added recently. Is there any source available to support this? I can find no reference to a "sister city" relationship between Dublin and Emmetsberg. The Dublin city council (and chamber of commerce) do have formal associations with Barcelona (pop 1.6m), San Jose (pop 1.6m), and Liverpool (pop ~1m) - this is easily confirmed on the Dublin City Council website and elsewhere.

If Emmetsberg does have an association with Dublin, it may not be "reciprocal" at an official level. (Even a unilateral association is speculation on my part however, as - per above - I cannot find any detail on a formal association between the 2 . Save for a note on Emmetsberg's Wikipedia entry). Any thoughts? Or supporting data? Guliolopez 16:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You might very well be right about a unilateral association, as I cannot find any definite reference in the .ie domain of twinning. (Do note that it's "Emmetsburg" not "Emmetsberg", in case you've been searching on the wrong name.) I have found this, but that's extremely weak in that there's no positive twinning/sister city reference. I have also found this on eBay (hope the link works!) where someone has minted an "Emmetsburg Iowa Sister City Dublin Irish Dollar".--A bit iffy 21:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I found this (last paragraph of History section) though I'm not convinced its a strong enough reference? Can't find anything at all about any sister cities on the Council website. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Surely the town's own history should be enough evidence for you that this is fact. It does state that "a joint proclamation officially declaring the two as “Sister Cities.” should be regarded as official which Guliolopez doubts. I have re-added it but will try to contact the town to try and confirm it. Cheers ww2censor 12:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

But that's not the town's history, its something written by a 'Non-Profit Volunteer Organization' - the lack of any other sources or references makes it dubious to me. Will remove it till we get confirmation or another ref/source. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 22:27, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Sometime during the last 6 months Emmetsburg has been re-added as a sister city without any supporting sources. Do we want to remove it again? ww2censor (talk) 17:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Multicultural Dublin

Are parts of that section not out of date already? Yep, 18 months to two years ago, Parnell Street may have been "Little Africa" - however, its now become a Chinatown. Loads of Chinese shops/supermarkets/restaurants, a couple of Polish ones, and very little African at all. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 13:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where is/was the black pool

Where is or was the black pool Dublin is named after? New299 17:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I brought a group on a tour of Dublin Castle several years ago and IIRC, the guide showed us an underground river at one point that she said lead to the 'Black Pool' that gave its name to city - so somewhere in or around the castle grounds would seem likely. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 22:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The pool itself is hidden underneath the Dubhlinn Gardens, just south of the castle. Wiki01916 03:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Industry and economy (Section 7.3)

Removed link A New Heart for Dublin PDF document here as it was merely a Progressive Democrats "proposal" and not an official Dublin Docklands Development Authority or Dublin City Council document. It belongs at most in the Dublin Port article. Rubensni 12:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IPA wrong

[bˠalʲɛ a:ha klʲiəh]

The sound represented by the letter e when the word in in pausa form is a schwa (central vowel), not an e. It looks like English was used to base the sound on. Also, consonant + vowel + l/n/r tends to become consonant +l/n/r +vowel in Irish, plus the long vowel of á is added to 'baile' so 'blaw klia(f)' arises, thus [bʷɫaː cliə(ɸ)], [c] IPA for /kʲ/, [l] for [lʲ]

[edit] confusion

"The name Dublin is a Hiberno-English derivative of 'Dubh Linn' (Irish, dubh -> black, and linn -> pool). Historically, in the traditional Gaelic script used for the Irish language, 'bh' was written with a dot over the 'b', viz 'Duḃ Linn' or 'Duḃlinn'. The French-speaking Normans omitted the dot and spelled the name variously as 'Develyn' or 'Dublin'."

There are other similar names in Ireland, and Hiberno English has 'Doolin' when bh is considered broad, for example. Dublin could not be from Hiberno-English as the lenition of b to bh had occured long before English had come to be spoken in Ireland.

Difflyin or similar would be from the devoicing a v-like pronouncing of bh.

Regardless, the remark on HE is not logical.

One other point not covered, is why an attributive adjective is standing before the noun (Linn Dhubh, for example). Is this influence from the Germanic Norse speech? Perhaps it should be stated too.

[edit] Name section and first image

Two things about recent (extensive) reorganisation of Dublin article.

1. Name section. Any particular reason why this would be now moved to the bottom? I thought it made sense where it was. Most articles which discuss the name of a city (and or changes to that name) do so very early on in the article. See: Madrid, London, Istanbul, Beijing, Belfast, srl. Thoughts? Objections to my moving it back up?
2. First image. The first guideline in WP:MOS#Images recommends (for various reasons) that opening images be right aligned. And yet the opening image in the Dublin article is left aligned. And kind of interferes with the reading of the opening para. Thoughts? Objections to my moving it back down?

Guliolopez 18:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Would it be possible to add the image into the infobox, similar to the London article? I see no problem in moving the stuff about the name back up though. Dan K 19:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Most of these edits by this anon editor, their first and only edits, didn't make a lot of sense in moving the name section way down the article. The separate population section seems a good idea though. Some of the phraseology seems odd, such as, " has produced three winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature" - are we a factory? "he planet's 16th most expensive city". I was too busy to change it or revert but someone, with a good editing eye, needs to give it a good look over. ww2censor 19:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Image in totally wrong place at top-left and that name section should be near the top of the sections. Djegan 20:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, would it be possible to move the IPA into the Name section, as there is an awful lot in the intro and makes the first par very hard to read. Dan K 22:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a decent idea. As another aside the lead section will need to be expanded to at least 3–4 paragraphs if we are ever to get this past a WP:GA to WP:FA status per WP:MOS. ww2censor 22:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sister cities

Budapest is mentioned as a sister city, but I could not find source for that. Could you provide some? Squash Racket 16:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA delisted

In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of September 18, 2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAC. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R.

• The lead doesn't adequately summarise the article.
• Every statement that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs an inline citation.
• References should state the author, publisher, publishing date and access date if known.
• The Transport section has stubby subsections. Either expand on them or merge them into one section.
• There should be a non-breaking space between a number and the unit of measurement.
• Full dates should be linked.

Regards, Epbr123 08:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "There are significant social divisions between the coastal suburbs in the east of the city, including those on the Northside, and the newer developments further to the west." ??

This sentence -- which is at the end of the 'Northside and Southside' section -- is confusing: what exactly are the social divisions, and which divisions reside in which areas? (Are the coastal suburbs rich, poor, or divided within themselves, for instance?) Thanks. 74.98.139.153 17:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old Norse pronunciation of Dyflinn

In either Modern Icelandic, whose pronunciation is preferred for reading Old Norse, or in the reconstructed Old Norse phonologies, it is impossible for "y" to have the value "u" or "ue" as it would in German or Modern Scandinavian languages.

Both "y" and "ý" have the same phonetic values as "i" and "í," making "duev-linn" a fundamentally incorrect pronunciation. I fixed this some time ago, and apparently someone edited it back to the incorrect version - I will refrain from changing it again, but perhaps whoever did it will read this and change it themselves.

-Adam, Nov. 14th, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.230.210 (talk) 20:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separating "Economy of Dublin" to wholly separate article

A change was made recently (undone temporarily until approach discussed) to split the "Economy" section into a separate article. Economy of Dublin. If this was done because the section was deemed too long, then at least a summarisation of the content should have been retained (as per London#Economy). Any thoughts on whether this separation is needed? And, if yes, on the best approach to linking the two articles? Guliolopez (talk) 21:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Recently, well actually earlier today, and leaving no information in the main article. That is very poor editing removing a large chunk without any discussion, while some might consider it bold, it could even be termed vandalism of the Dublin article. The amount of text that is in this section is not too long at all. If there is to be an Economy of Dublin that is distinctly different from Economy of Ireland, which mentions Dublin 20 times, it needs to be significantly longer than the current section text. Good to see you reverted the whole thing. Taoiseach is not exactly what one might term an involved editor with this topic, so maybe he does not know the guidelines for hiving off a section of text from a main article. ww2censor (talk) 23:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cathedral links added

Pjdscott (talk) 12:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC) 11:56, 21 March 2008: Under "See also" I have added links to existing Wiki entries:

Christ Church Cathedral, Dublin
St. Patrick's Cathedral, Dublin

Dublin is rare in having three cathedrals within the city limits, so it seemed unusual not to list all three.

[edit] Second City

In the Glasgow article they say it was the second city in the British Empire after London during the Victorian era! whilst reading the Dublin article I also notice they make the same claim, although there are no dates to this fact, does anyone here know if the dates for both claims overlapped, and if so did the London government make this decision? I have a feeling it may have been unnofficial but it would be interesting to know the facts! Anyone know?--Jack forbes (talk) 11:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Right, nobody knows, but I had to ask somewere and I thought this might be the right place,never mind!--Jack forbes (talk) 00:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fear city-fair city

I see both the links provided by User:137.71.226.54 for adding a line calling Dublin as a Fear city under the crime section here. It has been contested as original research a few edits before. After reading both the links provided, I see that both are popular articles that call Dublin Fear City in their title. There is nothing to indicate that this is not just a catch title! How can this justify inclusion in the article. I revert this hereby, pending justification from User:137.71.226.54. Please discuss constructively here and arrive at consensus. I hope this is fair. Prashanthns (talk) 14:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Prashanthns. Per notes left on the user's talkpage, two "catch title" mentions in the press over the past 8 years (one of the references is from 2001) do not support an assertion that "Dublin is commonly called 'Fear City'". I have personally never heard Dublin referred to under this label (either in the press, other media or general use). This is likewise a POV assertion, so I did a quick Google search for "Fear City" and "Dublin". It returns only a few mentions - 2 of which are the pop press references in question. Much of the rest are references to the 1984 film with Tom Berenger and a band of the same name. WP:3RR and WP:POINT issues aside, the assertion that "Dublin is commonly called 'Fear City'" is not accurate, is not verifiably supported by the references provided. It therefore approaches WP:OR (with WP:NPOV undertones). Guliolopez (talk) 14:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)