Talk:Dragons of Autumn Twilight

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Article milestones Date Process Result January 26, 2007 Peer review Reviewed February 13, 2007 Good article nominee Listed Current Status: Good article

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Assessment comments The following comments were left by the assessors: (edit · refresh) This article contains several references to places or items that are not clear. Also several plot twists do not become clear. For instance: - Why is this blue crystal staff relevant? - Why is it relevant that Kitiara is absent? Just don't mention her. - Why are they suddenly fleeing Solace? - Why is it relevant that Draconians would appear many more times (weasel-word alarm) to fight the companions - Who is Bupu? - What is Qualinesti? - Who is Elistan and why is his conversion important? Furthermore, the characters are introduced twice, once in the plot introduction, and once in Heroes of the Lance. Errabee 19:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Renaming? 2 Why massive spoilers? 3 More Information? 4 Novel cover change? 5 Updating 6 Title Meaning 7 I'm Working On It 8 Major Themes 9 Filling in the other fields 10 Improvement 11 Passed, minor suggestions 12 Relation to gaming modules

[edit] Renaming?

If this article is to stay, it should be renamed to Dragons of Autumn Twilight. However, I don't really think we should add such extensive information. The article should be shortened and appended to a new Chronicles Trilogy article. -- ReyBrujo 20:39, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why massive spoilers?

This is crazy! Why reveal that the old man is Paladine, and that Kitiara has become a Dragon Highlord? There's no good reason for doing that. Also there should be a spoiler warning (WikiPedia has some kind of template or function for this, I believe). Finally, an article about a book ought to consist of more than just a summary of the plot. A good place to start would be the effect that the book had on the surrounding world. --Peter Knutsen 02:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Basically, the full book is laid here. I don't agree with that, if you go to the Lord of the Rings book, you don't find the whole plot, just the most important topics. I am still waiting for some more experienced editors to give opinions whether this article should be (extremely) shortened or not. -- ReyBrujo 03:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've added spoiler boxes to all three novels. Grey Shadow 11:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Information?

I can't help but notice this entry is really only a massive summary of the book's story, with virtually no other information. Surely there are other things that can be mentioned, such as publication history, the fact that there exists a book on tape recording, perhaps even pictures of the different covers? Are there any sales figures which could be included, or literary reviews? Elijya 20:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

My idea is that the article should be more similar to The Hobbit or The Silmarillion, where what "surrounds" the book (creation, reasons, release, overcome, etc) is more important than the contents of the book. -- ReyBrujo 20:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Public reception of the book (I believe it has sold very well), its cultural impact (if any), and any critical comments/criticism directed against it (e.g. that "it is derivative of Tolkien", although I don't personally think so) is all useful content for a Wikipedia article on a book. As for the very detailed plot summary, that should be moved to a seperate article, and the main article's plot summary shortened to 2 long, 3 medium length or 4 short paragraphs of text. --Peter Knutsen 09:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Another piece of information that could be included, in order to make it into a well-rounded Wikipedia article instead of just a mile-long plot summary, is how the novel was actually written, e.g. under what circumstances, and also what it was that provided the inspiration for the novel, and maybe a bit about how the setting was created (since it is my understanding that the Dragonlance Chronicles trilogy was the first Dragonlance fiction ever published). I'll also add a note to the talk pages for the other two books in the trilogy, referring people to this page. --Peter Knutsen 08:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Novel cover change?

Was there a particular reason for the change in the novel cover? Grey Shadow 06:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, it is ugly indeed. A slightly bigger one won't bring any problem, just don't abuse (in example, if the image has a side bigger than 600px, I usually request a smaller one). -- ReyBrujo 22:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

An original edition cover would be better. That is what the NovelsWikiProject attempts to use in the infobox when avaliable. Grey Shadow 22:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I've uploaded an image of the first edition cover at 200px low res size that is used by the WikiNovelProject. Grey Shadow 09:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I've upload and added to each page the original first edition covers of the Chronicles. I tried to place them in visually pleasing locations within the text. I also have original first edition covers of the Twins trilogy that I would like to include on the appropriate pages as well. MP Samhain 17:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Make sure you remember to tag the book covers with [[Category:Dragonlance covers]]. It makes it so that I don't have to check all the images and make sure they're tagged properly. Ddcc 21:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone has swapped the original and the newer covers, but didn't update the cover artist. I updated the number of pages, but was unable to update the artist's name (Larry Elmore) without screwing up the other info boxes. Can anyone update that? MP Samhain 04:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Updating

I'm gonna look over the fields in the WikiProject Novels template thingy, and figure out what I can fill in, then discuss what needs to be filled in. One thing though, that I was thinking about, was the meaning of the title... Dragons is probably a reference to the dragons coming, Autumn is the season the book occurs, but Twilight.... I believe its Twlight at the end of the book, at the celebration, but I'm not sure. So, discuss that much here and we'll figure out the rest. DoomsDay349 17:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Adding a bit here, a lot of the article can be salvaged, the infobox, for example, as well as the intro and the plot, however the plot has to be compressed to about maybe two sentences per section. DoomsDay349 17:20, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title Meaning

From I can gather, much of the core novels' titles are the titles of their respective section in Astinus's Chronicles. In Test of the Twins it makes a reference to the events of that book being contained in Astinus's books under the same title, and it Second Generation it does the sam efor Dragons of Winter Night. Therefore, it is safe to say that is where at least the first six titles come from. DoomsDay349 02:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm Working On It

I'm working on this page, however to avoid disruption I'll be doing a rough draft at my sandbox. When it's ready, I'll move it here and we can work on it more. DoomsDay349 05:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Notice: I've moved some of the sections here, I've been advised to move it section by section. I need some help on the explanation of title, as some may find what is posted there as original research. DoomsDay349 01:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major Themes

Major Themes is gonna be a real hard subject to do abiding by the rules of original research. Obviously, we can't find our own themes, even though you could probably glean a few (I can vaquely think of a few, but I'd have to re-read, or at least skim it). I'll run an internet search, try to find something. Someone with access to the Annotated Chronicles might be able to find something. DoomsDay349 01:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I found two pages on amazon.com that could be used for this, though they relate to Dragons of Winter Night and Dragons of Spring Dawning rather than to Dragons of Autumn Twilight. They are reliance on your friends and the balance of good and evil. DoomsDay349 02:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Goldmoon#Chronicles trilogy, the last paragraph. That is why I picked Goldmoon as my first overhaul :-) -- ReyBrujo 02:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Most excellent. Thanks. DoomsDay349 23:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

OK I cant figure it out. You notice that in the references, the arrow that goes to the number is above the reference, when it should be beside. I can't fix it; can someone else? DoomsDay349 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Filling in the other fields

The remaining fields are:

==Allusions/references to other works== ~description how this novel mentions other works or their characters~ ==Literary significance & criticism== ~description based on the work of literature critics and commentators over the years, give citations~ ==Allusions/references from other works== ~description of works that mention this novel or its characters, if applicable~ ==Allusions/references to actual history, geography and current science== ~description how this novel mentions other incidents and subject matter outside the world of literature and criticism~ ==Awards and nominations== ~references to and details of awards and nominations, if applicable~ ==Trivia== ~any ephemeral infomation - othen called trivia~

If you can fill in any of these fields, please do. Literary Significance & Criticism and Awards and Nominations and Trivia should be focused on, I think. Any allusions can also be looked for, but they are, IMO, less important. Ill try a google search. DoomsDay349 00:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I can't find any serious reviews, just the typical amazon.com stuff and the like. If these count, then great. If not, ah well, we don't need to fill in every field. DoomsDay349 00:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Does NYT bestseller count as an award? DoomsDay349 00:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement

So basically what more has to be added? I realize criticism and reviews could be useful, but I'm having a hard time finding those. So, what more do you think should be added?DoomsDay349 19:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Since you ask for feedback (well done!), here are some more comments. Please don't take this personally, I think it's great you're trying so hard to make it a better article. I have no doubt you will succeed.

I already placed some comments on Talk:Dragons of Autumn Twilight/Comments

What I feel is generally missing is context. What is the context of this book? How does this fit into the Dragonlance world? Can you expand a little (!) on the War of the Lance (so the article becomes self-supporting). Why is this Chronicles series respected (?) as the core of the Dragonlance World? Do you have sources for that?

The sections "Major themes", "Movie adaptations" and "Allusions to A Christmas Carol" are still stubs and need to be expanded. The presence of major themes seem to imply there are also minor themes. How do these themes appear in the book, I do not see restoration of truth or faith in the plot summary.

BTW, the author is called by her first name (in the A Christmas Carol section), but the reader doesn't know her personally (but maybe you do?)

According to the categorization, it is a debut novel. Whose debut?

Expand on the creation of the novel, the D&D gaming modules (which?). Did the authors first play the gaming modules?

And I guess there's even more that could be added. Errabee 20:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I would advise changing the "Allusions to A Christmas Carol" section into an "Inspirations" section, so that we can include the many other things the authors made references to--such as the Bible (with many of their place and deity names), specific creatures from D&D (like Tiamat), real life (Laurana's name), and so forth. --Masamage 20:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow. That's a lot too do, but I'll get on it. I really need the help of someone with access to the Annotated Chronicles, I ought get my own copy of it as well. Thanks for the feedback, I'll work on what I can. DoomsDay349 20:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If you're in a purchasing mood... ^_^ --Masamage 20:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh, very funny, but I think I'll buy it from a bookstore. I also want to say its tough to explain Kitiara's absence without a big spoiler, and I really think it is important for her to be mentioned as she becomes a massively important character, it was one of the issues that had to be resolved in the shortening of the plot summary. I prefer not to re-introduce the truth about her (she became a Dragon Highlord), I'll try mentioning her letter and there is in fact one good thing to be explained there, something Flint says. Hopefully that wil resolve it. DoomsDay349 20:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I also want to ask, has the draconian issue been resolved? I wasn't clear on what exactly you wanted me to do, if it still is a problem, please be more specific in addressing it. DoomsDay349 20:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I need to clear up the rest of the issues. Major Themes, far as I know, there's only the one theme, and I dunno how to add any more to raise it from stub status. I'll just erase the header and put it into the plot synopsis. OK, so then, how do I expand on the War of the Lance? There is no War of the Lance section:please explain. I do not know Margaret personally, I'll change that. I believe it is Tracy Hickman's and Margaret Weis's debuts. I don't know much about the D&D modules thing, only that it was done. More info is in the Soulforge foreward, which I own and hace read, but that discusses Raistlin's creation, mostly. That's all. Thanks you for your response!DoomsDay349 21:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all the work, it clarified some mysteries to me. I've been doing some pruning on the plot summary, look at the difference. More pruning is to be done, but I'm having difficulties. So therefore the following questions:

• What is the goal of the Companions?
• Related, why would the Draconians want to try to thwart their efforts? A bar fight seems quite irrelevant.
• What is the significance of the spellbook give to Raistlin?
• Are the Disks of Mishakal the great object they are asked to retrieve by Forestmaster? If not what is? Do they ever return it to him?
• Why would they want to return to Solace if they are still wanted over there?

I may have more questions later on. Errabee 10:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll clear those up, but to answer them here: The ultimate goal of the Companions will be to defeat Takhisis, I may put that but also must mention that they are pulled into this by circumstance, not by some noble and just calling that they are required to fulfill. The Draconians are enigmatic in this first book, they do not really actively pursue them, the Companions in fact pursue them. They want to take the Blue Crystal Staff until it is reclaimed by Mishakal. After Xak Tsaroth, they don't actively pursue them, in fact it is the opposite. At Solace, they are captured by Draconians at orders from a hobgoblin named Toede, who has a personal score to settle with them (I think that's right, ill reread the passage). The spellbook is a delicate subject to clarify; if we do, we risk revealing Raistlin's pact with the lich, Fistandantilus, which the first-time reader should not know. I'll put that in, and if someone disagrees, we will talk it out. The Disks of Mishakal are part of a two-part quest that revolves around Goldmoon, they, combined with the true clerical powers she recieves are the cornerstone in the restoration of faith in the True Gods. They do not return the Disks to the Forestmaster, as they are meant for Elistan. I'll put that in. They are not truly wanted in Solace, they return to regroup because it is their home, but they find it occupied by the Dragonarmies. I'll put this info in, keep the questions coming, they are helping substantially. DoomsDay349 18:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, about the spellbook: it apparently does not play a large role in this book. I would consider letting it out, and in the book where his pact with the lich is revealed put in something as "the spellbook, which was retrieved at Xak Tsaroth (see Dragons of Autumn Twilight)". Errabee 19:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

New questions (all over the place):

• What is the meaning the constellations have disappeared?
• Why were they planning to storm Pax Tharkas in the first place? Did they learn about the slaves after this first attempt?
• What is the significance of Eben? Why not simply say they were betrayed, without mentioning a name?
• Are the undead (in the Darken Wood) important? I would prefer letting them out
• When does Mishakal reclaim the Blue Crystal Staff? I think it's best to mention the efforts of the Draconians to capture the Staff first, and continue with the story, and only later, at the appropriate place describe that Mishakal reclaims the Staff and that the roles are now reversed?

As you may notice, I'm trying to prune the text. In some cases, less is better. In the case of Eben for instance, if I were to write: They were betrayed by a man called John Doe or simply They were betrayed the second example is more to the point. If however the person who betrays them is very important, please do call him by name, but also explain why he is important. Example: "They were betrayed by Raistlin's father, John Doe." Errabee 00:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow you're chock full of questions aren't you? I'm too tired to even start on this, but I'll do it tomorrow. I'll have plenty of time then. DoomsDay349 04:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that :) Just remember, youo read the book, I didn't. Errabee 06:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean to sound like I was complaining; I was just really, really tired. DoomsDay349 14:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the part about Draconians attacking many times in the future. It's the source of a lot tough editing, I'm having problems fixing it, so I'm removing it. If anyone disagrees, say so. DoomsDay349 23:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I've pruned and cleared up what you asked. Keep the questions coming, I really do welcome them.

Great improvement. I know get the feeling I understand the plot a little. Errabee 12:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey thanks a lot for the upgrade! That's been my goal! And now, on to Dragons of Winter Night... DoomsDay349 05:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey all, I've been off a few days just taking a break, so anyway is there any more that can be improved? Plot summary questions are of course good but outside of that would be nice as well. DoomsDay349 21:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passed, minor suggestions

I'm passing this article, easily. It's great! My $0.02: the "article title" section could be easily folded into the intro as a para, I really don't think it deserves it's own section. I also found the character listing a little tedious, this might be better served in a separate article that covers the entire series of books (which I assume exists). Anyway, enjoy! Maury 23:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I've been waiting the review eagerly. I'll take your suggestions into effect, and will probably have it peer reviewed for a future FA. Thank you! DoomsDay349 23:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relation to gaming modules

The first scentence of this article states that the book is "based on a series of Dungeons & Dragons gaming modules." but then nothing else in the article explains or expands on this connection. I would think this article coupld be improved by putting some information in on this. Which modules exactly? How closely does the book follow the modules? what are somethings in the book not I the games, and/or vice versa? Which characters were playable and which NPC's? etc. I was actively playing AD&D at the time that Dragonlance was released, I did not play the DL modules but borrowed and read the novels off a friend. My recollection was the books and novels were developed together, though it does seem reasonable that the plots of the novels were based somewhat on the original playtesting of these modules. If this is the case some of the characters were originally played by noteable people, if anyone has info on this would be something interesting. - Waza 11:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your paragraph, but actually that was a mistake. It was based off of one gaming session played by the authors and some friends. I've changed and referenced the statement. Thanks for pointing it out though :) DoomsDay349 01:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

There is an article in Dragon Magazine [ "Chronicles: a novel idea" (November 1984). Dragon #91: 44-45. TSR. ISSN 0279-6848. ] which includes extensive quotes from both Weis and Hickman as to the relationship of the novel to the game modules. I will try finding some more sources before doing so, but it looks to me there is enough here to specifically make a small section in this article. - Waza 01:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a quote I came across when researching something else that may be relevant to the questions I raised here. From an interview with movie screenwriter George Strayton:

"They [Hickman and Weis in Annotated Chronicles] had mentioned that in writing this first Dragonlance book, they were constrained by the Dragonlance adventure modules, which had already been written. That caused the novel to have more of an episodic feel than they would've liked (they reversed this process for Dragons of Winter Night and the subsequent books so that the story came first)."

- Waza 11:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

If you want to add something in, go ahead, so long as it's verified. Remember, be bold. DoomsDay349 18:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement to be bold. Though in this case more than a lack of boldness it's that I can across this information while doing something else and didn't want to loose my train of thought on the other article while working out how to integrate the information here. I have put info from both these sources into the article now. - Waza 21:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I've already thanked you on your talk page, but I'll thank you here again. I'm really grateful for all the work you've done. Nice job on the changes here. DoomsDay349 21:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)