Talk:Dimitris P. Kraniotis

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by the Arts and Entertainment work group.

	Greece Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece, an attempt to expand, improve and standardize the content and structure of articles related to Greece.
If you would like to participate, you can improve Dimitris P. Kraniotis, or sign up and contribute in a wider array of articles like those on our to do list. If you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. (comments)
Mid	This article has been rated as a Mid priority article
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked

Contents 1 Quality Standards 2 Sources and notability 3 Amateur 4 Awards 5 Muses Prize 6 Spamming international Wikipedias

[edit] Quality Standards

Just wondering why this article came back online… It was already deleted once in 8. Oct. 2006 after this discussion in April/May 2006. The arguments are still the same. This article looks like a blatant case of Wikipedia:Spam for personal promotion:

• ridiculous number of Wikipedia:External links, Wikipedia is not a linkfarm
• ridiculous number of arbitrary titles and prizes of dubious qualitiy without any external sources. See: Wikipedia:Attribution
• ridiculous number of stubs in international Wikipedias

Could please anyone clean up this article? I dit it last time and I don't want to do it again… By the way, did I mention how truly important and famous I am? Me, the president of the World's First Fellowship of Encyclopedists, who won the Global Nobelman's Poetry Stewardship Award… You might have never heard about these organisations (of course, I made them up like 5 minutes ago), but the names sound great, don't they. ;-) Oh yes, and in high school I once made a third place in a spelling bee contest. ;-))) --plauz (talk) 12:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: OK, I did some cleaning up. Thanks to the help of a friendly admin, we now have access to the earlier history of this article. So I took the liberty to restore the version from 2 Oct 2006 with some small updates. If anybody thinks that valuable content is missing, please provide it. But don't forget to provide external references, so that readers can evaluate the truth and the meaningfullness of the claims. See also Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown. --plauz (talk) 09:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources and notability

Are there any reliable sources that explain the notability of this person? All I can find are blog entries written by the person himself, a club that he has start himself, a big bunch of stub articles on various Wikipedia language versions, publishers that don't seem to have published books by anyone else, ... Any sources for the information in the article? Anything that shows that this isn't just one guy promoting himself on the Internet? Weregerbil (talk) 16:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes and No. If you look at the article's history, you'll find some versions that include external sources, at least for the books and this strange Muses prize. However, they tend to get overwritten by a Greek IP and/or User:Kkpap. Here's the version, you would have seen half an our earlier. This version also includes a reliable reference to his fourth book.

But notability? No. Notorious, maybe. :-) He's only claim of fame is the Muses prize. And being one of twelve nominees of an unknown number of submissions isn't really a big hit. I haven't found any review of his work outside his circle of self-promotion websites. So this guy is promoting himself.--Rather cleverly, I might add.

Then there's this issue of two authors with the same name. There's this Dimitris P. Kraniotis, born 1966, and the other Dimitris Kraniotis, born 1950. There was an ugly incident in the 2006 deletion discussion, when a Greek IP (purposefully?) misquoted an external endorsement. The DPK article was not deleted from German Wikipedia because someone mistook one author for the other. (The other fits my bar for notability: printed by reputable publishers, mentioned in major literary magazine.) However this Greek IP took the endorsement and replaced the names of the other's books with DPK's: original modified copy difference. In order to prevent this confusion in the future, I see a benefit in keeping both articles.

However, I wouldn't mind at all if this article was deleted and padlocked. This might make it easier for other Wikipedias to get rid of their stub-spam… --plauz (talk) 16:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not immediately convinced the Muses Prize, awarded by Muses Review magazine, is a real notable award by a real notable magazine. Looks more like a web site that advertises you and your books for an entrance fee to the competition. The Wikipedia articles on the prize and the magazine were created as a part of the Kraniotis self-promotion campaign. Weregerbil (talk) 07:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely! Maybe I should have added a smilie after "claim of fame". ;-) If you look at DPKs self-promotional material, he presents it like some kind of Academie Award. It took me some time to find and add references that put things into perspective. (I hope you don't take me for a sock puppet of DPK's...)

Your reaction shows nicely, why I love verifiable sources. One click and readers can make up their own mind about the importance of such an award. The Muses prize has no (notable) jury. Basically everybody on the web can cast a vote. But the best part about this Muses prize is the unknown number of submissions. Personally, I think there were exactly--twelve. ;-))

By the way, I encourage you to Afd this article. I'd support its deletion. My first attempt in 2006 petered out in a long discussion… From today's point of view I'd prefer two alternatives a) keep this article for journalists as an independent source, so that they don't fall for DPK's scheme or b) delete and padlock it. But the Afd should come from somebody else who hasn't been involved in this article for so long. --plauz (talk) 10:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Amateur

Hi User:Kkpap! Amateurs are nice people. They love what they do. No need to hide that. :-) If you think that Dimitris P. Kraniotis is more than just an un-notable amateur, please provide some external references. Any favorable review of his work (not the awards!) in a reputable literary magazines or newspaper will do. Until then, "amateur" describes best, what you find on the web about Kraniotis' work. --plauz (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Some references about Dimitris P. Kraniotis (books, magazines, newspapers, bookstores, etc):

Academy of Athens (Library), National Greek Television, News, Arabesques Review (Identities), Books from Greece, Allbooks, Greece, Bazaarbooks, Greece, Books.gr, Greece, Bookstore Lemoni, Greece, To Vima, Greece, To Vima, Greece, Pathfinder News, Greece, Arges Express, Romania, Argesul, Romania, Sega, Bulgaria, Cetatea Culturala, Romania,Harvests of New Millenium, India, Kafla Inter-Continental, India, The World Poets Quarterly, China, Live-Pedia, Greece, Ministry of Culture, Bulgaria, Mobius, poetry magazine, USA, Mur de poesie de Tours, France, News Today, India, Poesy, USA, Poetry Magazine, USA, Private, Italy, Private, Italy, Private, Italy, Private, Italy, Private, Italy, Private, Italy, Private, Italy, Revealing All Your Dirty Little Secrets, USA, Taj Mahal Review, India, Taj Mahal Review, India, Taj Mahal Review, India, Taj Mahal Review, India, The Hindu, India, The Hindu, India, The Poet Magazine, USA, The Poet Magazine, USA, We the Poets, USA, Imerisios Kirikas, Greece, Kosmos, Greece, Eleftheria, Greece, Kosmos (newspaper), Greece, Imerisios Kirikas, Greece, Eleftheria, Greece, Eleftheria, Greece, Kosmos, Greece, Poetry Festival of Thessaloniki, Greece —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkpap (talk • contribs) 21:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Please select the most important one. Quality not quantity. You don't want to add this whole list to the article, do you? Just for fun I sampled some of the links:

• Some just mention that you wrote 4 books. That fact is established. The Wikipedia article already contains good references that prove the existence of your books. No need to repeat it here.
• Then there are pictures of beautiful blondes handing you a prize, a link to an OPAC, links to arbitrary magazines, …

Do you want me to go through the whole collection? You want to prove that DPK is not simply a very active amateur, but such a good and important poet that he deserves to be mentioned in an encyclopedia.

By the way, I think you know what you are doing. For example cyberwit.net. Your link in this long lists points to a journal. Sounds great! But then I compared it to the link to the same site that you tried to remove yesterday. Guess what http://www.cyberwit.net/harvests.htm says on the page title? "A site for the promotion of the amateur and budding literary talents." (mirror at archive.org) A very accurate description. --plauz (talk) 21:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: Another example. One link in your list points to poesy.org. The last sentence on their about us page sums it up nicely: "It is about finding your voice and letting it be heard."

Ah, and while we are at it. Another link in your list points to We the poets. OK, now if you go to the homepage of this site at http://scars.tv the page head says: "Scars publications - the mother of all publishing ventures for new writers."

The "mur de poésie de Tours 2006" (wall of poetry in the city of Tours) [1] is also interesting. If you click on the link on the top of the page you get a better idea of this event: "SEPTIÈME « MUR DE POÉSIE DE TOURS » du 1er au 15 mars 2006 au deuxième étage de la Chapelle Saint-Éloi" (... at the second floor of the Saint-Éloi chapel). Again, I think you know what you're doing. You didn't provide a link that actually shows your poem on the wall of poetry. Why? It's such a lovely picture! I appreciate the handwriting on the top of the wall. ;) But more importantly, the poem wasn't selected for artistic merits, but just because you are a member of "UNION MONDIALE DES ÉCRIVAINS MÉDECINS", a society of Writing Physicians.

Amateurs are nice and lovable people. You don't have to be ashamed of being an amateur! It's a good thing. But it doesn't qualify for an entry in an encyclopedia. :-( --plauz (talk) 22:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

More references about Dimitris P. Kraniotis (from Google search): Het Oog Van de Roos, Belgium, Poetry Craze, Pakistan, Poetry Magazine, USA, About Books, Greece, Books in Greek, Phigita.net, Greece, Phigita.net, Greece, Ygdrasil, Canada, Famous poets and poems, USA, IES Triana, Spain, Istanbul Literary Review, Turkey, Poetry Soup, USA, Bookstore Antipolis, Greece, The Land of Gods, Canada, Arabesques Review, Algeria, Balkan Literary Herald, Serbia, Boloji, India, Peri Grafis, Greece, e-Magazino, Greece, e-Magazino, Greece, Kritya, India, Le Manoir des Poetes, France, Editorial Ala de Cuervo, Venezuela, Club des Poetes, France, Arges, Romania, TPQ Online, USA, Write Me A Metaphor, USA, Arte Poetica, El Salvador, Modern Greek Literature, Muscadine Lines: A Southern Journal, USA, Lyrik Welt, Germany, Poesie du Monde, Germany, Poetic Diversity, USA, Poetry in a Cup, USA, Red Mundial de Escritores en Espanol, Spain, The MAG, USA, The Other Voices International Project, USA, The Verse Marauder, USA, United Poets Laureate International, USA , Private, Italy, Pen Himalaya, Nepal, Light Millennium, USA, Thanal Online, India, International Zeitschrift, Canada, First Writer, Global Harmony Association, Russia, Municipality of Kardzhali, Bulgaria, Poetas del Mundo, Chile , Stachtes Hellenic Review, Greece, The Cartier Street Review, Canada, Zam Bomba, Poets Corner Press, USA —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkpap (talk • contribs) 09:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Please do us all a favor and select the most important one. If you could include one reference in Wikipedia, which one would be it? --plauz (talk) 09:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear plauz select the most important references for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by kkpap (talk • contribs) 14:07, 28 April 2008

Thanks for the honor! I love Poetry Soup's Famous poets. If Poetry Soup calls someone a "famous poet", they must be a famous poet. Of course! For sure! Absolutely positive! No doubt whatsover! A perfectly reliable source! Kraniotis is a famous author, because Poetry Soup says so. ;)))

But what I love even more about that site, is that you are not listed as a famous poet! "Sorry, there are currently no Famous Poets whose name contain the search term(s)...kraniotis."[2] You had to link to the subpage "Famous Poets to Add", because you weren't added yet… Maybe you didn't meet Poetry Soup's quality standards?

So why should this link convince me that you are more relevant for Wikipedia than the million other hobby-poets out there?

Verifying references is fun! ;-) --plauz (talk) 13:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

He!! he!!! This is not the only one reference. Why not the other references? "Academy of Athens", "Arabesques Review (Identities)", "Private" (magazine), IES Triana (Spain), Balkan Literary Herald, Mobius (poetry magazine), Het Oog Van de Roos, the newspapers (in Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, India), etc? Dear plauz you have a personal problem with Kraniotis. I stop this dialogue because you are not objective...and I am not Kraniotis. Bye... —Preceding unsigned comment added by kkpap (talk • contribs) 18:16, 28 April 2008

[edit] Awards

Some Greek IPs and User:Kkpap are reinserting long lists of awards and affiliations, again and again. I will continue to remove:

1. claims without proper references. I tried to google some of the awards and affiliations and found only Kraniotis' own pages. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a mirror of Kraniotis' homepage,
2. awards where Kraniotis is a key member of the awarding society,
3. awards that are only part of self-promotion websites,
4. awards and memberships that have no proven relevance within the literary community, or
5. awards and memberships that say nothing about the quality of Kraniotis work as a poet and the appreciation by highly-respected peers. For example in France, membership in the Académie française is one of the highest honours an artist or scientist can possibly achieve. In movies, membership in the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences is also limited to the best in their field.

Just to give you an idea what kind of references I'm looking for in Greek poets, let's look at Odysseas Elytis. OK, not every great poet wins a Nobel Prize of Literature [3]. But if you look at his Wikipedia article you'll "Doctor Honoris Causa in the Faculty of Philosophy at the Thessaloniki University". Yes, that's a title that indicates some skill in the field and apprecition by peers. Compare this to Kroniotis "Doctor of Literature (Litt. D.) by the World Academy of Arts and Culture (WAAC)" (kkpap's edit 24. April 2008). I find it hard to not burst out in laughter. According to the charter of the World Academy of Arts and Culture it is an honorable endeavour. International contacts in the name of peace are alway a good thing. Also an organisation that is open to everyone. But unfortunately, membership in or honours by this organisation say nothing about the artistic merits of a poet.

One more thing. In order to remove those awards and memberships, nobody has to prove that the claims are bogus. You have to prove that the claims are a) for real and b) of importance for Wikipedia when you insert them. --plauz (talk) 18:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Friends, maybe plauz has a personal problem with poet Dimitris P. Kraniotis. Sorry, but he writes inaccuracies about the Greek poet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkpap (talk • contribs) 10:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi kkpap, here's what I suggest. Pick any one of the "inaccuracies" and explain here on the talk page how it should be corrected. Please discuss awards and memberhips in this discussion thread here. Please discuss the word "amateur" in the thread above. --plauz (talk) 11:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear plauz I don't believe that you are responsible evaluated important (not amateurs) organizations respectable in the poets and writers (World Congress of Poets, World Academy of Arts and Culture (USA), United Poets Laureate International (USA), International PEN, Hellenic Literary Society, International Writers & Artists Association (IWA), International Academy of Micenei (Italy), International Academy Orient Occident (Romania), Union Mondiale des Ecrivains Medecins (UMEM), International Society of Greek Writers (Greece), Hellenic Society of Writing Physicians, Academy of American Poets, Poetry Society of America, etc.) These organizations are worthy of respect. Dear plauz see an article about Greek Literature (in Spanish): [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkpap (talk • contribs) 17:52, 27 April 2008

Please pick one of these organisations and explain why it needs to be listed in Wikipedia. I'm happy to discuss these organisations one at a time. --plauz (talk) 16:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Muses Prize

I removed the following section about the Muses prize:

In 2005 Kraniotis submitted several poems from his book Fictitious Line to the 2nd Muses Prize - Poetry contest ^[1] on the self-promotion website Muses Review. Kraniotis was nominated in the category Best Poem of Year 2005 - Male Poet ^[2], together with 12 other authors of an unknown number of total submissions.

Why? Because this is indeed a self-promotional prize. The contest rules state as objective for the prize: "1. To encourage more poets to write poetry, 2. To encourage more poets to publish poetry books, 3. To boost the sales of poetry books that are worth reading." OK, if this ain't promotion, what is?

The homepage mentions Kraniotis' book, but under the headline Read Book Ads/Click to Buy. I call an prominently placed ad that directly points to an online store self-promotion.

And I still have problems with the relevance of this prize. How many poets entered the competetion? Twelve? That would mean that all entrants have been nominated. I also wonder who the jury was. So far this looks like a bunch of well-meaning amateurs. I really don't see how this Muses Prize qualifies for an encyclopedia-entry. --plauz (talk) 07:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spamming international Wikipedias

Here's some circumstancial evidence that Mr. Kraniotis himself is spamming international Wikipedias with stubs. Mr. Kraniotis writes on his homepage: “He is featured in the online encyclopedia "Wikipedia" in 26 languages“ [5]. OK, Wikipedia is supposed to mention him, because he's notable. But he says himself, that he's notable because Wikipedia mentions him. Sorry, but that's abusing Wikipedia for self-promotion. --plauz (talk) 09:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear plauz I want your opinion about the articles & their references in Wikipedia of other Greek poets: Dimitris Lyacos, Dimitris Varos, Haris Vlavianos, Yannis Yfantis, Sotiris Kakisis, etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kkpap (talk • contribs) 14:03, 28 April 2008

Very simple: they don't have over 20 interwiki links. They don't brag in their resume with Wikipedia entries. --plauz (talk) 13:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

OK! Finally this is your personal problem and not the standars in Wikipedia. Your problem is only Kraniotis. Thank you. I stop... Bye... —Preceding unsigned comment added by kkpap (talk • contribs) 17:54, 28 April 2008

You're welcome. (For the record: Those articles are indeed sub-standard and need to be properly tagged and eventually fixed. But I focus on the Kraniotis article for various reasons: The other Greek writers don't endorse spam in multiple Wikipedias. Those articles don't get repeatedly overwritten with long lists of arbitrary Awards and unverifiable Affiliations. They haven't been deleted and recreated.) --plauz (talk) 18:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually this is fun again. :-) For Yannis Yfantis it took me 5 minutes with Google to find reputable references: a state-(co)-sponsored scholarship at Villa Waldberga (near Munich)[6] and a participation in an culture event sponsored by the German Government[7]. The latter reference also includes an endorsement of his poetic work by the truly famous Greek poet Yiannis Ritsos. OK, this information still lacks in the article. But it proves my point. If someone is a notable poet, it can be verified easily. It's not the number of Google hits, it's the quality. Yfantis doesn't need 26 Wikipedias on his homepage to prove his notability. --plauz (talk) 19:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)