Talk:Deportation of Crimean Tatars

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[edit] English titles

I suggest using English for article titles and rename this into Deportation of Crimean Tatars (1944). We can still mention Sürgün in the article's text of course. --Irpen 20:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know what we should name the article, but we do have Holodomor and not Ukrainian famine which redirects to the article.. I am for either one.. —dima/s-ko/ 01:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I am not sure it should not be the other way around in Holodomor. Secondly, Holodomor is at least somewhat, however little, established name in English literature on the subject. Can we say the same about Surgun? --Irpen 02:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Well no, it's not very established. Doing a quick google check, Sürgün + Crimea (so only English language links will popup) gives 718 ghits, and Deporation + Crimean Tatars — 36,500. Even Google books search yields more results for Deporation + Crimean Tatars (402) v.s. 12 on Sürgün.. So we should perhaps move the article (if no one else objects) since the title is not established in eng. lang. —dima/s-ko/ 02:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

However, official Crimean Tatar sources prefer to use Surgun or Sürgün. Moreover, I think even this term is rather modern, the Crimeans tend to use this term. The such situation could be observed at Paraimos. I think the title shouldn't be moved --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 08:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If the terms are used for articles' titles those should only be the ones that are established English names. In an absence of those, the descriptive name should be used. Deportation of Crimean Tatars (1944) would be a name that does not attempt to hide or white-wash anything but the reader is more likely to be able to get an idea of the article's topic from the title. Surgun is meaningless for those who don't know the Tatar language. --Irpen 17:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

As well as Holodomor, Porajmos, Holocaust, Urkun and other terms. Sürgün is not so widely used, but the mass-media tend to use it. --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 18:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Holocaust is widely used. Holodomor is used as well. IMO, it is still better to rename it to Famine in Ukraine (1932-1933) but even as is it is still the term that can be found in English literature, unlike Surgun. I don't understand why you object and want to impose a non-English and an unknown term on the readers which would less likely to even click on the article under the titles that means nothing to them. Surgun can and will be me mentioned in the first line of the article. --Irpen 18:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

mmm... deportation itself means only deportation, whereas Sürgün includes not only deportation, but a life in exile too. Please, compare other events I'd listed, especially Urkun. User:Untifler

P.s. I'm not sure but sürgün is not Turkish fo r exile, Crimean only. User:Untifler

       It is both Turkish and Crimean for exile  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.104.50.40 (talk) 19:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC) 

Life in the exile is certainly a part of the deportation theme and can be covered in the article. I do not insist on my title. I just want something that sounds meaningful in English. If Surgun has any use, even as little as Holodomor I would have accepted it but it seems to me that for English it is a complete neologism. --Irpen 20:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There is one more reason for the current name. Sürgün is a bit Turkified term. In standard Crimean Tatar the word sürgün means "someone who is exiled/deported", and the word for the "exile/deportation" is sürgünlik. Turks use term sürgün in both meanings. Don Alessandro (talk) 11:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)