Talk:De Havilland Mosquito

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Contents 1 Various points 2 Glue - any comments on this assertion 3 The quote of Göring 4 Manoeuvrability 5 Original research 6 Dogfighting/nightfighting 7 The quote of Göring 8 Number built 9 Rubber Fuel Tank 10 Operations Jericho, Carthage and Notable Pilot list 11 Fair use rationale for Image:DE HAVILLAND 1943 Advertisement s.jpg 12 comparable aircraft

[edit] Various points

1. The 4,000 lb 'block-buster' required a slightly modified bomb-bay.

2. The 'explosion' that caused problems on the transatlantic ferry is believed to be ice forming on the pressure relief valve of the pneumatic storage tank, although there are suspicions of other causes.

3. There is also the special version intended to drop the 'Highball' anti-shipping version of the bouncing bomb used by 617 squadron against the Ruhr dams. One one squadron were equipped and they never managed to see action, partly through development delays and partly (it is suspected) politics.

4. The method of hardening the glue was the first use of a magnetron for this purpose, the forerunner of the microwave oven.

Anyone can edit the article - don't bother posting here! Dan100 ([[User talk:Dan100|Talk)]] 21:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Your right anyone could edit... but I have questions. Does anyone know where I can find more info on the construction specs? I would be willing to add any results to the artical. ZenBearClaw

Phil Birtles' book should be a good starting point, if it's still available. - Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] 10:09, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

5. I just want to log this detail, but I'm not sure where it would fit correctly. My late father was an RAF radio operator stationed with Mosquito squadrons in the jungles of Burma. He always used to tell me that the biggest reliability problem was that the white ants would infest the wooden structures and eat them away. AndyHolyer 11:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

6. The Germans found the Mosquitos so annoying that they referred to bomb damage by the planes as "Moskitobissen" (mosquito bites)

This article is a word-for-word copy of a brochure published by the Pathfinder museum (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafbramptonwytonhenlow/rafcms/mediafiles/9818FCBF_1143_EC82_2ED93F5D8312A0C6.pdf) without acknowledging it. Peter Kahrel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.253.228 (talk) 14:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Just checked the Pathfinder Museum article and it appears that the part on construction is the same. But the rest is different. The Pathfinder article has no copyright or other acknlowedgements to its source, they may have come from one of the sources detailed at the bottom of this article. So it is not a word-for-word copy except for the Construction section which should be looked at in case of copyvio. MilborneOne 16:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Glue - any comments on this assertion

The article currently states: "The specialized wood veneer used in the construction of the Mosquito was made by Roddis Manufacturing in Marshfield, Wisconsin, USA. Hamilton Roddis had teams of dexterous young women ironing the (unusually thin) strong wood veneer product before shipping to the UK." Can anyone subtatiate this. To my knowledge, the plywood sheets made in steam presses, and formed in concrete forms - not "ironed".

The following text pinched from Marshfield Manufacturing website - 'During World War II the Marshfield plant ... made aircraft plywood and cut and shipped special birch veneer to Britain for use in construction of the famed De Havilland Mosquito Bomber. The veneer for the bomber was so thin that it could not be dried by mechanical means, but rather had to be hung by wires to air dry. At least 90% of the production of the Marshfield plant during WWII was devoted to the war effort. Among later contracts awarded to the Marshfield plant was the manufacture of the aircraft plywood used to construct Howard Hughes’ HK-1 Flying Boat also known as the Spruce Goose.' [1] - so, no mention of ironing!

Philip Birtles' 1998 book which seems to be regarded as authoritative and pretty comprehensive, and details the process of manufacturing, doesn't mention any of this. In any case though, the aircraft were indeed built in wood and (later) concrete moulds, but this doesn't really bear on the production method of the original veneers that went into the ply. --Ndaisley 08:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have been to Marshfield, Wisconsin. The former horse-barn that was converted to hand-ironing is still there. Walk into the Roddis plant, they are happy to talk about their roll in the Mosquito. The women who did the ironing still live in Marshfield. Of course, personal knowledge is hard to reference for the web so I will attempt to find a newspaper account suitable for linking. Suffice it to say it is so. 69.218.136.151 02:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

That was fast. Here is a quote from the University of Wisconsin-Marshfiled website;

Marion Fredrick, Marshfield, recalled her days working at Roddis Plywood during the war. Women across the nation contributed to the war effort by working in factories – women in central Wisconsin were no exception.

“I ironed the thin sheets of veneer for the airplane wings,” Frederick recalled. “I enjoyed the work. I worked a split shift. We’d start at 6 in the morning and work until 10. Then we’d come back at noon and work until 4. I wouldn’t want to do it now, but I enjoyed it then.”

Dr. Andrew Keogh, dean of UW-M/WC, said the campus was honored to be the inaugural host to the Flying Trees exhibit, which will be on display in the library through January.

The site can be found by 'googling' 'roddis veneer mosquito' 69.218.136.151 03:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The quote of Göring

There should be a indication of the source of this quote by Göring. Anybody know how it was passed down? I doubt it was on the 3rd reich's news...

The nazis weren't 'voted into power' either. Keith-264 (talk) 18:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Manoeuvrability

I've added a "citation needed" tag to the line suggesting that the Mozzie could out turn a Spitfire. 203.129.39.223 09:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It's possible that Mosquito could be more agile in certain flight modes. Multiengine aircraft as a whole tended to do better in tight low-speed turns due to good excess power. RAF bombers routinely relied on this during the evasive corkscrew. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 15:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

During much of the war, the Mosquito was one of the fastest aircraft in the sky on either side (the prototype was the fastest of the series at 437 mph), and one of the most manoeuvrable - in mock combats, it could climb faster (Mosquito FB VI's rate of climb: 2,850 ft/min/14.5 m/s compared to the Spitfire Mk V's rate of climb: 2665 ft/min/13.5 m/s) and turn nearly as quickly as a Spitfire. Measuring manoeuvrability in turns of wing loading gave the Spitfire MK V's wing loading: 28 lb/ft² (137 kg/m²) an advantage compared to the Mosquito FB MK VI's wing loading: 41.2 lb/ft² (18.68 kg/m²).

Unless the author can provide a reference, the above is original research (specifically, It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;). The reference has to be for the entire assertion, not for the individual numbers. This is also the type of argument that is ubiquitous on flight sim message boards (my wing loading can beat up your dad's wing loading). Wing loading is one out of a great number of factors that influence turning ability, and does not tell the whole story. No armchair piloting here please, stick to the facts. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 08:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Emt147, loosen up. I know that the quote that another editor wanted cited is somewhere in some book that I have but I had given up finding an exact reference and had resorted to the Wikipedia's own articles on both aircraft so I would hardly call this original research. Until I find the quote that I need to cite, give the note a break and leave it in place. If you insist on taking it our than I can quote that the information was derived from Sweetman, Bill. Mosquito. "the Great Book of World War II Airplanes." New York: Wing & Anchor Press, 1984. ISBN 0-517-459930. p. 323. The author there states that the Mosquito, lightly loaded could outrun the Spitfire (in trials). Be charitable- it's Xmas. LOL Bzuk Monday, 25 December 2006 12:54 (UTC)

So Christmas is a magical time when we can disregard official Wikipedia guidelines? Pulling performance numbers from two different articles and then drawing conclusions not directly supported by a reliable source is original research (see the direct quote from WP:NOR above for what you are doing). Please edit the above text down to exactly the claim made by your reference and cite it. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 19:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Please disregard any tongue in cheek comments from this point on, You obviously did not get it. I did not make the original claim for a citation and merely wanted to help out the article and as I had said, this note was merely an early effort to answer the first poster's question of whether the Mosquito had the manoeuverability that was claimed by many sources. Bzuk 19:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Please read the above quote from WP:NOR again (speaking of not getting it). It specifically says not to do what you did (synthesis of data to support conclusions). My contention is very specifically with the climb rate and wing loading figures you drew from other articles to support the statement (not to mention the fact that comparison of these figures is meaningless out of context, e.g. altitude, weight, etc.). In the context of aircraft articles, NOR works very well to avoid fanboyism and flight sim message board boasting. Please keep it this way. I have never pulled text that was supported by a credible reference. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 02:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dogfighting/nightfighting

I read in _Mosquito_ by Martin Bowman that the Mosquito could not in fact dogfight with single engine fighters. Unless someone can provide a reference otherwise I'll remove that statement.

There seems to be little mention of the night fighting done by Mosquitos.

Kitplane01 23:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The quote of Göring

"There should be a indication of the source of this quote by Göring."

Not the exact quote, but a similar one: Göring speaking to Generalfeldmarschall Milch, March 1943:

"Hermann Göring im Gespräch mit Generalfeldmarschall Milch im März 1943 zur Mosquito

... Dann fehlt weiter das Holzflugzeug, und das bringt mich nun wirklich auf den Baum, muß ich sagen. Ich kann wahnsinnig werden, wenn ich die Mosquito sehe. Ich werde grün und gelb vor Neid. Der Engländer, der sich noch mehr Aluminium leisten kann als wir, baut sich ganz schön eine Holzmaschine und zwar mit einer Geschwindigkeit, die er jetzt schon wieder gesteigert hat. Die Mosquito, die Linz photographiert hat, hat nach unserer genauen Rechnung, nicht nach der englischen, eine Reisegeschwindigkeit von sage und schreibe 530 km/h als Bomber. Da schneiden Sie sich einmal ein Stück ab! Das ist eine Maschine, die jede Klavierfabrik drüben macht.

Leider, leider - ich könnte mich umbringen - habe ich mich damals gegenüber dem Generaloberst insofern nicht durchgesetzt, als ich seine größere Urteilsfähigkeit damals habe gelten lassen. Ich habe dieses Holzflugzeug, als der Krieg ausbrach, noch und noch gefordert, weil es nichts schadet, zusätzlich Holzjäger und Bomber zu bauen. Aber da hieß es: "Das ist unmöglich, das kann man keinem Piloten zumuten, da lacht uns die ganze Welt aus!"

- Jetzt kann man uns auslachen, weil wir es nicht haben. Vorgestern haben die Mosquitos wieder einen Tiefangriff auf Paderborn gemacht. Sie haben keine Maschine verloren, oder nur eine ist verlorengegangen. Die Jäger haben sie nicht gesehen. Die Mosquitos sind da wie die Blöden da herumgeflogen, bei hellichtem Tage, haben nur auf ihre Geschwindigkeit vertraut, und sie waren rasend schnell. Obwohl sie nur 50 m Höhe flogen, haben sie alle Waffen zuhause gelassen, allein auf ihre Geschwindigkeit bauend, und haben das geschafft. Diese Flugzeuge müssen sich die Herren mal ansehen, damit sie wieder etwas lernen; die Primitivität dieses Flugzeuges ist erstaunlich. Auch hier sage ich: Warum lange suchen? Bauen wir die Mosquito nach! Das ist das einfachste, was wir machen können."

http://www.luftkrieg-ederbergland.de/goering.htm

Felix c 23:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number built

Does that "7,781" in the inbox include the Canadian and Australian production runs? Grant | Talk 08:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rubber Fuel Tank

I'm not 100% certain but I'm sure that the Mosquito was fitted with a fuel tank made of rubber, rather than the traditional steel or aluminium. The advantage was that any bullet holes would shrink in size naturally as the rubber contracted back into shape, thus stemming the loss of fuel. A metal tank when holed would stay holed at the same size.

[edit] Operations Jericho, Carthage and Notable Pilot list

Jericho: No mention of units, nor Percy Pickard. Carthage: This needed a deal of clarification; original paragraph doesn't explain how the school was accidentally destroyed, nor does it explain the Squadrons involved, although 613 Squadron is mentioned in the previous paragraph. Notable Pilots: The problem I have with this is that there are many, many notable Mosquito pilots who deserve at least an honourable mention. And what about the Navigators/Radio/AI operators, who surely deserve some recognition for their efforts? ("Jimmy" Rawnsley, Cunningham's 'sidekick'; "Syd" Clayton and his navigator Hugh Morrison, who took part in several notable Mosquito operations...the list is long.) Although the stories are interesting, and it's interesting to see some famous cricketing personalities, this part doesn't really seem to belong. Another page on "Mosquito Personalities" perhaps?Minorhistorian (talk) 13:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:DE HAVILLAND 1943 Advertisement s.jpg

Image:DE HAVILLAND 1943 Advertisement s.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] comparable aircraft

The guidelines on the see also suggest have for similar aircraft "similar role, era, and capability this design" (sic). The Westland Whirlwind was a single seater fighter of half the size, range and load. It was used as a tactical bomber only and not as a nightfighter and so doesn't fit (to my mind). Any thoughts?GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Some design elements of the Whirlwind were used in the Mosquito ie; the inner wing radiators, but apart from being twin engined and having a similar layout the two were in no way comparable in purpose or in role.Minorhistorian (talk) 03:37, 18 May 2008 (UTC)