Talk:David Hackworth
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This article has a few grammar problems and should be cleaned up --Prospero 06:06, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What more can be said about this patriotic American? Stevertigo
- Well, a list of medals awarded would be nice. When they were awarded would be cool. Funkyj
I would fix the grammar mistakes, but I can't. The things locked. --Kross 04:07, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Clean-up
This article is in need of a serious clean-up, with its NPOV statements, poor grammar, bad sentence structure. (E.g., "most patriotic American".) Jkp1187 16:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Even in its attempt to lionize Hackworth, the text screws up. Hackworth himself would likely have disputed that he was "all infantry". (a) he was an airmobile commander in Vietnam, therefore possibly a model for Kilgore in the mind's eye of the scriptwriter, and (b) he was an airborne commander, not straight-leg infantry. None of his positions regarding the first Iraq war, in which in Newsweek he gaudily predicted 10,000 American dead, is even touched upon.--Buckboard 19:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buckboard (talk • contribs). (cute addition, especially since I signed the comment using the time stamp button)
This article continues to need significant cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Aside from its POV statements, it suffers from the repeated use of jargon-ish, chatty "military" language where more appropriate terms would be more appropriate. For example, why is GEN Marshall referred to as "'SLAM' Marshall" rather than simply "GEN Marshall"? The article is not about GEN Marshall, so why is his nickname relevant? Some of the statements simply make little sense, e.g. stating that COL Hackworth took over a unit "made up largely of conscripts" and "transformed it into the counterinsurgent "Hardcore" Battalion (Recondo)". Considering that the U.S. Army in Vietnam was a draftee army, the original description as "conscripts" doesn't differentiate COL Hackworth's unit from any other in the Army. And putting together a new name from some tough-guy buzzwords like "counterinsurgent Hardcore Battalion (Recondo)" doesn't provide any evidence of increased military effectiveness. It's not even clear whose name this is -- the Army's, COL Hackworth's, or the author's.198.151.13.8 (talk) 19:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Chronological Mistake
I agree that the article needs a clean-up for the reasons given above. It also contains this statement that is clearly in error:
Hackworth was eventually assigned to Germany in the 1960s as an Infantry company commander under Colonel Glover S. Johns, and learned a great deal of the skills that were needed to be an effective officer from this old warhorse. He was involved in a number of fire drills around the Berlin Blockade, and his exploits at the time were rivaled only by the loyalty of his troops and the growth in his leadership skills and style that he enjoyed. His reflections on military history are there for all to read in his autobiography "About Face."
The Berlin Blockade lasted from 24 June 1948 to 11 May 1949 - so Hackworth could not have been involved in it. The author probably meant the building of the Berlin Wall, which began on 13 August 1961.
Textor 06:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Added the Medals
I think the page was locked because it was linked to from the "Deaths" section on the mainpage. --Jpbrenna 01:24, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm curious how his uniform jacket would look with all his authorized decorations (you know, the uniform that the Army says is equivalent to a business suit) --- it would probably go practically over his shoulder Eddieuny 17:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
He only wore the important ones, and since most of those were with multiple clusters, the ribbons did not take up that much room on his chest. They did not even look particularly impressive until you got close enough to see what they actually were.
[edit] What about Tiger Force?
Te article dosnt even mention it!--James Bond 07:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
He served with the Wolfhounds--not the Tiger Force. Nor did he serve in the Rangers, as often quoted. And according to his Official Service record (and people who knew him), he joined the Army at age 19, not 15.
He was a Ranger. The 27th Regiment (Wolfhounds) formed a Ranger Platoon and Hackworth was the Platoon leader. He went to a school of some sort were he was awarded the Ranger tab (by his Regimental commander?) but never went to Ranger School at Ft. Benning. This is what lead to the Ranger tab contrversey.
- According to the Tiger Force wikipage, he started it as the Bn. commander of the 1st Battalion (Airborne), 327th Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade (Separate), 101st Airborne Division. So while he may have been in the Wolfhounds, he was also connected to the Tiger Force in some way. Maybe we can delete this entry? Or change it to discuss exactly what his role in the Tiger force was, anyhow. Rhetth 18:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Prose copyedit
I think that this article might do with being toned down a little. All in all it's a good read but it is overly effusive. Describing him as "... Americas' finest patriot of his generation" is a bit too much for an encyclopedia article. Phrase things a little more neutrally, after all the man's achievements speak for themselves.
Xdamrtalk 22:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV
i removed the sentence: He was Americas' finest patriot of his generation. in the "interwar service" chapter. --80.63.213.182 22:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Newsweek fired Hackworth"
I am going to remove this phrase until someone who has knowledge of this incident can clarify a few things:
1.) Was it firing for cause or a layoff(i.e., simple failure to renew a contract.)
2.) If firing for cause, reason for the dismissal. Was it due to misconduct (or allegations thereof) in his investigation of the Navy officer mentioned? Or were there other issues?
2.) Sources for the above.
[edit] promotion dates
It would be nice if anyone could provide promotion dates. I have seen it claimed that he was the youngest O3 and the youngest O6; promotion dates would seem appropriate to help evaluation such claims. ~~
[edit] Moved from top of talk page
This article omits some less attractive details of Hack's past, presumably removed by his fans or wife. Particularly important: Hack had a brothel of "safe" women for his troops in vietnam. Controversial, but innovative and indicative of his realism. - (This unsigned comment left by 75.52.240.179 (talk · contribs) 01:34, 19 June 2007)
Normally I would remove an unsourced comment like this. However, this information appears in the autobiographical book About Face. That being the case, I doubt the information is being suppressed. It's more likely that it's not controversial, since Hackworth made no effort to hide it. If you have a reliable source showing it's controversial, then bring it. Otherwise, please don't try to sensationalize the article. MoodyGroove 02:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove
Here is another unsourced comment. I interviewed Hack personally around 1981 for an Australian institute of technology's student newspaper. He told me that he had been on LBJ's staff, and heard him say of North Vietnam "Let's nuke the bastards. I don't want to be the first American president to lose a war", and that was when he became opposed to nuclear weapons. John Wilkins (talk) 09:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Was there a reason you didn't include that in the article? MoodyGroove (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove
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- Unsourced John Wilkins (talk) 13:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Sorry, I meant, was there a reason you didn't include it the article you wrote for AIT (hence we would have a source)? Just curious. MoodyGroove (talk) 16:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove
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[edit] Korea chronology
Doesn't he describe his battlefield commission as occurring before the Wolfhound Raiders were formed? Harvard yarrd
- I revised & extended the relevant section of article. Harvard yarrd
[edit] "Bird Colonel" ?
This is a minor detail, but here goes:
Under the Vietnam service paragraph, it states Hackworth was promoted to "Full Colonel (also known as Bird Colonel)" or some such...I see no reason for the "Bird Colonel" remark. There is Lieutenant Colonel and then Colonel. Sometimes the term "full bird colonel" is indeed used in casual talk just to differentiate between the two, but the Colonel rank is not "known as Bird Colonel"...In that paragraph, the rank distinction (his promotion) is clear without the slang. No need to mislead non-military readers on the terminology...Engr105th 03:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- I concur, and I just changed the article accordingly. Harvard yarrd
[edit] "No references" ?
The article has a tag: "This article does not cite any references or sources." Yet, reading the article, there are references. Much of the bio material is probably pulled from his book About Face -- at least, it agrees with it. Harvard yarrd
[edit] "Col Kurtz" ?
Removed:
It's said that the role of Colonel Kurtz is a combination of three Vietnam War officers: Colonel Charles Beckwith, USA (Ret), Lt. General Harold Moore, USA (Ret)(See WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE, AND YOUNG), and Colonel David H. Hackworth, USA (Ret). Some have written that the role of Lt. Col. Kilgore in "Apocalypse Now" was based upon David Hackworth; perhaps, but Hack was never an "Air Cav" officer - he was all infantry.
No sourcing, begs the questions: 'It's said'- by whom? 'Some have written...' Who? Dubious claims given the fact that Apocalypse Now! was based on Joseph Conrad's novella Heart of Darkness from 1899, predating all 3 soldiers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.236.246 (talk) 04:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
"Hackworth, through his Newsweek articles, questioned Boorda's wearing of potentially unauthorized V ( for valor) devices on his Navy Achievement Medal and Navy Commendation Medal, generating much controversy." Hackworth had not written in Newsweek on the subject of Admiral Boorda's medals prior to the scheduled interview. Hackworth had intended to surprise Boorda on this subject, having not disclosed the subject of the interview. On the day of the scheduled interview, Hackworth's office reported that he had missed his flight connection in Salt Lake City and would not make the interview. Instead the Newsweek bureau chief and defense correspondent were to replace him, and they disclosed the subject of the interview. This was reported to Admiral Boorda, who noted that he'd removed the combat distinguising devices from the ribbons about a year earlier. Then, he went home and committed suicide. Later that day, I received a call from former chief of naval operations, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, who insisted that, as commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, had presented the medal -- with Combat 'V' -- to Boorda during the Vietnam War. Hackworth did not write for Newsweek again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitch19 (talk • contribs) 21:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Quote Attribution
Hackworth is cited in this article as saying, ""Sweat in training saves blood on the battlefield." I'm quite certain that quote originated with Erwin Rommel, who repeatedly states "Sweat saves blood" in his infantry manual which predates Hackworth. It is a certainty that Hackworth was familiar with Rommel's doctrines. 96.24.50.135 (talk) 03:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Proposal for exapnsion
If no one objects I think it is worth noting in the article two things. Firstly he stated in About Face he faced indifference from Slam about writing the Vietnam Primer but eventually persuaded him. Also, after he appeared on Issues and Answers he essentially went on the lam hiding from army agents intent on finding him to prevent his scheduled discharge. This was done to allow the army time to investigate him (i.e. dig the dirt) for things such as a illeagal arms and drug trafficking. To gather eveidence his bank details were accessed without a warrant and phones were tapped in motels he stayed at. No warrants were ever obtained for these (had any i'm sure it would have come out by now and he would have been discredited). Westmoreland also took the time to make sure the letter all leaving officers (above a certain rank??) recieved signed by him was not given to hack. This info should be included as it gives info on the obsticals he faced in improving the war effort before he left and the behaviour he faced in speaking out.
if no objects I will add this info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.197.79.18 (talk) 06:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
