Talk:Dairy product
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I like this arrangement better myself. I do agree that particular grades of milk and cream and particular kinds of cheese can be listed on their respective pages. But... Condensed and sweetened evaporated milk are not the same. Whey is not a kind of cheese but a cheese making by-product. Cottage cheese is a curds and whey mixture and I don't know what cream cheese is exactly but it is always sold in the dairy dept. not the cheese counter. --rmhermen
Yes, there will be inevitably some vagueness. "Condensed" and "Evaporated" milk products are the same, but you are correct that one can find them both sweetened and unsweetened. I'll have to think about how to clarify that. "Curds" and "Whey" are not, so far as I know, "products" in the sense that you can buy them or use them as they are--though you can, as you point out, buy them together as "cottage cheese" or "clotted cream". Cream cheese is just a cheese like any other; it belongs there, as does cottage cheese as well. The cheese article should do a good job of expplaining the curdling process and by-products. --LDC
- Sweetened Condensed Milk is a "mixture of whole milk and sugar, 40 to 45 percent of which is sugar. This mixture is heated until about 60 percent of the water evaporates. The resulting condensed mixture is extremely sticky and sweet. Unsweetened condensed milk is referred to as EVAPORATED MILK."
based on THE FOOD LOVER'S COMPANION, 2nd edition, by Sharon Tyler Herbst. http://www.allrecipes.com/encyc/terms/s/8791.asp but "Condensed Milk (bulk) is obtained by the partial removal of water from whole or skim milk, which has been pasteurized and to which nothing has been added." according to the American Dairy Products Institute. (This may be a commercial not retail product.) --rmhermen
yes you can buy curds and whey separately and use them that way. Curds (or squeeky cheese - it makes odd queeky noioses as you eat it.) are almost always sold at cheese factories. Cottage cheese is halfway to cheese but not there yet. And again cottage cheese is sold in the dairy dept. not the cheese counter (at least here.) Clooted cream is apparently just a very high fat form of cream -not a pre-cheese. I think they should be listed as they are since they are substantially different. - rmhermen
If you can actually buy curds, then by all means include them. Cottage cheese is a cheese, by any reasonable definition of the word. Where they choose to sell it makes no difference, but the fact that they do in fact separate it might make listing it separately useful (same with cream cheese). --LDC
If cottage cheese is cheese than so is yogurt. -rmhermen
But isn't cottage cheese curdled with acid like cheese, rather than cultured with bacteria like sour cream/yogurt? --LDC
There are three ways to curdle your milk to make cheese - with acid, with rennet (an enzyme from cow stomaches) or with bacteria -just like yogurt. Apparently connoiseurs prefer bacteria-produced cheese. Me, I eat it all. --rmhermen
(It's four hyphens for a break, by the way) We'll have to find some expert opinion here, then, because that's not my understanding. All cheese, as I understand it, is curdled with acid (rennet is an acid), separated from the whey, then possibly further cultured with bacteria or mold ("ripened"). Yogurt, Kefir, and Sour cream are never curdled or separated from the whey; the culture is added to raw milk and the whole consumed. Ripened cheeses like Brie, Bleu, etc. are cultured only after the curds are separated after having been curdled with acid. Cottage cheese is different from most cheeses only in that the whey is not removed. I may well be wrong, here, but I'd like to hear from an actual cheesemaker, or at least a good reference work. --LDC
- no, ripened cheeses are any cheeses with bacteria that are aged (which is almost all cheeses). Blue cheese and Brie have mold added after they processed with bacteria and rennet - blue cheese before it is pressed and Brie after. Rennet is an animal or more often now vegetable enzyme, chymosin, not an acid, that forms the curd. Rennet is not added to yogurt, sour cream or cream cheese. Sour Cream and yogurt use bacteria and cream cheese, which is separated from its whey, uses buttermilk, a mild acid. Cottage cheese is separate from most of its whey, it's just never pressed.
For what rennet is and how cheese is made: http://www.vegsoc.org/info/cheese.html or http://gourmetsleuth.com/cheeserecipes.htm#queso%20fresco --rmhermen
Cottage cheese is sold with the dairy products because its shelf life is extremely short - I don't know about America, but in Australia the 'soft' cheeses are also stored in the refrigerated section next to the dairy products, because they need refrigeration to keep them good! KJ
- In America, except for really hard cheeses like grated Parmesan, they are all usually kept in refrigeration. --rmhermen
Although I get the impression, surfing the web, that a number of "experts" condemn this usage, many people in the United States seem to think of eggs as dairy products. I myself considered eggs to be dairy products until just now, when several web sites contradicted me, and I get the impression that most of the people I know still view eggs as dairy. Has anyone else in America (or elsewhere) had a similar experience? If so, does anyone have an explanation for why eggs and milk products have come, for some of us, to be lumped into the same category? Were they clumped together historically? Are Americans insane? Am I insane? --Ryguasu
- Eggs are not milk products, nor are they processed in a dairy. BUT eggs are traditionally packaged at a dairy, sold in a dairy store, found near milk in the refrigerators in the dairy section of the grocery and traditionally delivered along with milk by the milkman from the local dairy. So, since eggs come from dairies, people considered them dairy products which, in that sense, they are. Bluelion
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- Eggs have never been considered as dairy, have never been packaged in dairy, have never been delivered from dairy. Yes, only the Americans are insane ;) --Arjuna 09:49, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
Removed swedish "Fil Mjölk" as it is same as buttermilk. --Arjuna 09:43, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] Eggs not Dairy
It's strange that you would think of eggs as a dairy product. Perhaps you associate the two with farms. Another possiblity is you are thinking of a food pryamid where they lump dairy and egg products into the same "dairy" category. I think this decision to lump the two together in the pryamid was an effort to signify the protein and fat sources inherent to both, but was never meant to draw any direct relationship.
- No, "dairy" means food produced by animals that is not meat. Eggs are indeed dairy. —Chowbok 18:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as a 55-yr native of USA, I think there (could be) a traditional tendency here to include eggs in a loosely-defined "dairy" category. Partly because our image of a country farm with a few milk cows would also include some chickens and egg gathering. Partly because a milk delivery person would also be expected to offer eggs. Partly because they are traditionally refrigerated and sold together; they are both basic traditional foodstuffs, and any store that sold one would sell the other. But very much because of our category "Eggs and Dairy", which we are all very familiar with from the government and the way stores are organized, and cookbooks etc, which (could) naturally be abbreviated in our minds at it's simplest to "Dairy". I don't think it is a definition we would/could defend, just a way of thinking we (could) easily fall into. How are these matters different in other parts of the world? 69.87.194.147 15:51, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
- This must be a regional usage. In California as far as I know we don't actually perceive eggs to be a dairy product, although they are shelved together for convenience. They're a poultry product that just happens to need refrigeration, so eggs go in the dairy section. In which part of the country do they actually call eggs a dairy product? --Coolcaesar 02:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I may be tying myself in knots here... I actually grew up mostly in Southern California, although I've lived for decades on the East Coast recently. I did not mean to imply that I actually do call eggs dairy, or would, or know anyone who would -- just that it all seems quite vague to me, not something I am that clear about, and I could easily imagine that someone would. So I would not personally remove mention of such a notion from the main article as "obvious wrongheaded-impossible"... 69.87.203.132 21:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- Eggs and milk should be classified together because they are both foods that are produced by animals. This distinguishes them from food that is animals (meat) and, of course, fruits and vegetables. —Chowbok ☠ 03:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Eggs are not dairy products. Period. Therefore there is no point in even mentioning this here. Halogenated (talk) 02:36, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] stock food?
A couple of the products here are described as "stock food," which is a term that I am not familiar with. (I'm in the U.S., if that makes a difference.) I can think of a few different possibilities, but what does it mean? FreplySpang 01:07, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Khoa
There's a reference to Khoa. This link gets redirected to Khowa, a tribe of people. If somebody knows what 'Khoa' is, this should be fixed. -- anniepoo - 11 October 2005
[edit] Margerine?
What about Margerine? Dairy product? -- Nojer2 10:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
- From the margerine article: "Modern margarine can be made from any of a wide variety of animal or vegetable fats, and is often mixed with skim milk..." and other ingredients. So, while margerine may contain some milk, it isn't primarily a dairy product, as such. Jonathunder 21:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Please, someone edit the bit near the end of the page where it says "some retards." Can we be adults, please, people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.190.71.125 (talk) 12:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Citations, NPOV, etc
This article requires citations and a general cleanup to remove opinion based material such as "Eggs as Dairy" etc. I will be removing this section entirely, along with other info unless someone cares to clean it up substantially. This article does not meet many of Wikipedia's criteria Halogenated (talk) 23:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
