Talk:Communist Party of China

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[edit] Need for a history

Surely there is a need for a 'History of the CCP' article here? Arguably the most significant years of the Party came in the 1920s and 30s; the struggles in the Civil War, massive financial links and assistance with Soviet Russia etc. I would be happy to do it myself, but wouldn't feel qualified.... Jon.

Shall we note who's on the Central Committee, who's on the Politburo, and who's on the Standing Committee? If so, how?--GABaker

Should the history of the Chinese Communist Party be included? I think it's important for people to know about its formation due to nationalism, the long march, its role in the World War II, and the Chinese Civil War.

I expanded and footnoted the early history, and moved the Jiangxi Soviet flag down to the section on that period. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Modification

PBSC and PB members added, Sept 4, 2006 DOR (HK) (talk) 08:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Removed Hua Guofeng. I don't remember if he is still in the Central Committee, but he hasn't been in the Politburo or had any real power since the early 1980s.

Also removed the note about advanced age and retirement policy. The members of the Politburo don't see particularly old to me (they are mostly in the 60's), and they will be really young after the handover of power that is coming up. Also, there is an informal retirement age policy, but it wasn't promulgated by Jiang Zemin, rather it was one of those things that seems to have been enacted by consensus. --User:Roadrunner

Hua Guofeng.. He resigned two or three years ago, claiming that the CPC was virtually the same as the Guomindang/Kuomintang nowadays. Shorne 02:10, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hua Guofeng was in the Central Committee until 2002. Since he was Mao's chosen successor, he was given special exemption to the retirement rule as homage to Mao and on the account that he no longer held power. Are there sources for him quitting the party? The wikipedia article says rumors of "health" problems. Roadrunner made those comments before the 16th Congress. --Jia ng 02:49, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'll try to find a reference. I read about it in Chinese a couple of years ago. Evidently he had to pay a large fee (membership dues or something; I'm hazy on the details) just to be allowed to leave the party. Shorne 03:02, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hua Guofeng was a member of the 11-14th CCP Central Committees, 1973-97. He was not a member of the 15th or 16th CCP CCs. Sources: http://www.chinavitae.com/biography/Hua_Guofeng; http://www.chinavitae.com/library/cpc_central_committee%7C15; and http://www.chinavitae.com/library/cpc_central_committee%7C16

DOR (HK) (talk) 08:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm basing my comments partly on this: "Former CPC general secretary Hua Guofeng, ever appointed successor by Chairman Mao Zedong and a CCCPC member for four Party congresses, also retired as an octogenarian from the 16th CCCPC. 'This marks the end of a past era', a Beijing-based foreign diplomat said." (People's Daily). I also remember reading in some centrist US news magazine (TIME, Newsweek or whatever) pre-16th Congress that incorrectly predicted Hua would be kept in the Central Committee in the 16th. --Jia ng 21:25, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Also removed reference to Li Peng being head of internal security. He doesn't have any special internal security power that I an aware of. Also removed line about Li Ruihuan being a rival to Jiang Zemin. There really isn't any clear reason to think that this is the case.

--User:Roadrunner

This is the information I've been getting off the press wires, including the age policy and positions. I agree with the assessment of Li Ruihan. Hua Guofeng is still on the Politburo, if not the Standing Committee. ?--GABaker

No. Hua Guofeng was removed from the Politburo in 1982. He probably still is in the Central Committee. Reference....

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0018944.html

Hua Guofeng is no longer in the party. See above. Shorne 02:10, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Have to be careful with wire service reports. They are sometimes shockingly inaccurate.

True. Thus we balance topicality with accuracy. Oh, well. --GABaker

Shouldn't this page be named Communist Party of China or whatever the correct name is?

Of course, please determine the correct name and do that. Fred Bauder 12:20 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

Hmm, the form Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is used in CIA World Factbook http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ch.html#Govt

The form Communist Party of China (CPC) is used on the page "Political Parties and Social Organizations" of china.org.cn/

http://www.china.org.cn/e-china/politicalsystem/politicalOrgnization.htm

which is given as a link for "China in Brief" info on the web site of the Embassy of the People's Republic of China in the United States of America

http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/c2685.html

I'd say embassy trumps CIA. Comments, please?

Probably Communist Party of China is better. I've seen both, but CPC fits Wikipedia conventions --user:Roadrunner

Is it worth putting in a sentence about the "translation" from the Chinese name of the party to English? Or even simply an acknowledgement of the difference in Chinese? A better translation would be "People's Assets Party", of course I will defer to anyone whose Chinese is better than mine! --Shannonr 06:08, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I made a minor change on the front page, to change "occassionally" to "also." In academic sources and historical documents, the term Chinese Communist Party or CCP is used quite often. RebelAt 13:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

CCP or CPC? In Chinese, the party is Zhongguo [China] Gongchan [communist] Dang [party], so CCP should be the correct acronym.

CMC or MAC? Junshi [military affairs] Shiwu [work or general affairs] Weiyuanhui [committee or commision], so MAC should be the choice. -- David O'Rear

This should be restored:

"The Communist Party of China is the most diabolical organization that has ever existed. It has more blood on its hands than any regime in human history:Tens of millions slaughtered in the terrorist campaign to seize control of the country, tens of millions starved to death because of evil Communist Policies, tens of millions of political murders, tens of millions dead due to campaigns of genocide that are still ongoing, and unspeakable poverty due to the failures of Communism. " JoeM

sorry. strongly POV. BTW, there was no real genocide, but you can't see it if you are blinded by your hatre of Communist Party of China. wshun

Well, where is the "history" section? wshun 20:09, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

First, I'd like to clarify that the new paragraphs aren't mine, but Roadrunner's. Although toned down, the hysterical charges by JoeM that are being reinserted distort the balance of the article. Roadrunner articulated the points of both those critical and supportive in an appropriate manner. In addition, the charges of "tens of millions of political murders" and campaigns of "genocide" are inappropriate. Even the most egregious estimates of executions under Mao come nowhere close to "tens of millions." JoeM seems to be confusing famine with executions. 172 11:45, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hi 172, I think the criticisms should still be reported, even if (perhaps especially if) untrue. The fact that many people in the West think (for example) that the famines were intentional is a major factor in foreign perceptions of China -- JoeM's opinions represent one way that the Chinese government is perceived, and we should report that. If you can then balance that with evidence that these accusations are untrue, or add the opinions of others that they are untrue, this builds up the full NPOV picture. -- The Anome 11:55, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Those hysterical accusations cannot be sufficiently addressed in this article, but in the article on PRC history. In addition, JoeM's thinking is out of pace with the times even here in the United States. Permanent Normal Trade Relations (PNTR) is law; "constructive engagement" (now dubbed "strategic competition" by the Bush administration) is the norm; and the PRC has attained WTO membership. His opinions are those of a fringe of the American right. Most Republicans in the House and the Senate supported PNTR and so does the Republican president. Right now, top priority vis-à-vis China among mainstream American observers and policymakers is the debate over fixed or floating exchange rates for the yuan. 172 12:09, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

These are not fringe arguments. They are not hysterical. Many people blame Mao for the famines that occured during the 1950s/60s. Note that the criticisms do not blame the current leadership. If you want to keep removing criticism for the CCP, then I will remove support of it in the following paragraph. If criticism is not allowed then support is not allowed. I will also remove support of the CPC in the Li Peng and History of the PRC articles. That's the only way the article can be balanced. Your "contructive engagement" argument is irrelevant. That is for the US government to do, not for an encyclopedia. Are we afraid to piss off the commies here? --Jiang 21:47, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The famine claim isn't dubious, but the "tens of millions of political murders" rant from JoeM is. But this is beyond the point. This is an article on the CPC, not Chinese history. Thus, it's a digression. What I am leaving in the text is far better written and far, relevant, and succinct and accomplishes the task of presenting the views of critics. What I am removing, however, cannot be addressed in proper detail in this article, which is not on Chinese history. 172 22:19, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The Anome has already edited out the emotional "tens of millions of political murders" rant and made it NPOV. The statements belong because it speaks directly of party leadership and legacy, which pertains to its viability in the future. Are we to edit out the bull in Ronald Reagan, specifically, "During his administration, there was a major scandal and investigation of his administration's covert support of wars in Iran and Nicaragua in what came to be known as the Iran-Contra Affair. A member of his administration had sold arms to the Iranian government, and given the revenue to the contras in Nicaragua. Reagan's quick call for the appointment of an Independent Counsel to investigate, and cooperation with counsel, kept the scandals from affecting his presidency. It was found that the president was guilty of the scandal only in that his lax control of his own staff resulted in his ignorance of the arms sale. " just because that is not an article on American history? Of course not! That's because he was responsble/involved. --Jiang 22:29, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I don't see any point in including the disputed passages under that heading. Anome's text is a lot more NPOV than the earlier writing, but it seems IMHO irrelevant in that context, when it is discussed in detail elsewhere. FearÉIREANN 22:42, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's a lot less than what is put under the legacy section of Li Peng. You should also take note on the environment/patriot act sections of the George W. Bush article. It always been the case that the implementor of the policy gets a mention of it in his/her/its article. --Jiang 22:51, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Now that there has been a rewrite, the content is now fine. Dispute over. 172 09:52, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Supporters of Tibet nationalists and Taiwan independence, extreme right wing politicians in United States of America and Japan, are among the group which has represented the government of China by the CPC as a totalitarian regime

I don't think only the extreme right wing politicians accuse the Chinese gov't of being totalitarian. Int'l human-right organizations such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International accuse it of being totalitarian as well. The US gov't as a whole also view the Chinese gov't as a totalitarian gov't in its annual human rights report.
128.195.100.178 03:37, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC) User:128.195.100.178:

I wrote this earlier today, assuming that this was the article on the People's Republic of China. I clicked on the talk page link after taking a look at the recent changes on my watchlist, and was under the mistaken impression that this was the PRC article. I would not have been as hard on this anon had I realized this. However, I still maintain that we need to keep the typologies out. 172 17:33, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I can't stand starting my morning with yet another example of strong anti-China opinions and little knowledge: this is a secton of the article on the structures and institutions of PRC government, not the regime typology picked by outside activists imbued with the white man's burden. The paragraph in question just ought to be removed. Why don't we remove the typologies all together, and quit conflating ideal-type typologies, used in comparative politics for the purposes of research are and cross-regional comparisons, with regime-types? I'm tired of having to explain on page after page that these terms are not regime-types (e.g., monarchy, constitutional monarchy, parliamentary democracy, federal republic, Communist state, military regime, etc.). Can we all agree to use terms precisely, in their proper context, recognizing the proper definitions? If people here would just realize that it's impossible for Wikipedia to endorse typologies, and that a regime typology is not a regime-type, a lot of the most trivial disputes that I've encountered on Wiki could have been avoided. First, a regime-type is what belongs under the heading of government-type. It is the basic constitutional structure – and the officially codified relationship between layers of government and/or party structures, relationship between the party and/or state and military, and the nature of the party and/or state leadership and decisional hierarchy. I keep on stating "party and/or state" because there's always a state, and sometimes a party/state (such as CPC-rule of the PRC). Yes, sometimes sometimes this tells us nothing, and typologies do have their place. However, we can distinguish the nominal government-type from the practice in the remaining sections, without picking one scholar's typology over another. Although the approaches vary considerably, a typology is a theoretical conception often considering the state/party decisional flow beyond the scope of what's on paper, the nature of the party and/or state relationship vis-à-vis civil society, and the pluralism afforded (not just stated on paper) within the regimes structures and institutions. It takes into account variables of pluralism, civil society, and political culture related to the regime-type. And often other variables are far more determining of the typology than the regime-type. However, typologies are entirely inappropriate when conflated with regime-type, and they cannot be endorsed by a neutral sourcebook and encyclopedia. On of the idiosyncrasies of comparative politics is the rate at which these typologies – along with their diminishing sub-types even, proliferate and change over the years, and the frequent disagreements that arise over applying them to different regions. For over a generation, the tripartite distinction between authoritarianism, democracy, and totalitarianism has given way to hundreds of different approaches for categorizing typologies – so the approaches don't even overlap. Beginning in the 1970s, the top Soviet specialists in the West began finding that models of "institutional pluralism", "bureaucratic pluralism," "post-totalitarianism," or various interest groups approaches were far more suggestive and helpful in figuring out the inner workings of the Soviet regime than the old totalitarian model. In additon, serious scholars do not use the old totalitarian model for China these days. Furthermore, there will never be any consensus behind a universal approach to classifying regime typologies. Thus, endorsing a typology is impossible due to the NPOV guidelines. Nor would a consensus be needed. Any set of regime typologies could be more analytically useful to a researcher depending on the purpose employed. Based on empirical evidence, a specialist will have to determine which sets of typologies are best suited for his/her inquiry. Typologies can vary, and can even proliferate whenever new patterns seem to be emerging that do not fit old models. New evidence can trigger the modification. In addition, the classification schemes all have their temporal and regional confines. Some might be more ambitious than others, while others might be narrowed to a particular region or anything else for that matter. The term "totalitarianism," however, has moved from the ivory tower to popular discourse in the context of the Cold War, when the United States was mobilizing domestic and international agitation against the Soviet Union. Construing the simplified little epic of "totalitarianism versus democracy," while crushing moves toward democratization at times, and coddling some of the most bloody and repressive regimes in Latin American, Africa, and Southeast Asian history often at the same time, the term caught on and is used more in the context of propaganda than scholarship these days. However, whether as propaganda or typology, the term "totalitarian" doesn't belong in this article. 172 12:44, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The term totalitarian *does* belong in the article because there are large and politically significant groups which see the CCP as totalitarian. I think they are nuts, but their views are significant enough to be worth mentioning.

Roadrunner 15:44, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the term belongs, within that context, and that the people who see the CPC as totalitarian are nuts. Shorne 02:10, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Also, changed the paragraph. There isn't anyone political significant who denies that millions of people died in the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. The issue is interpreting what that fact (which is undisputed) means.

Roadrunner 15:44, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

There are indeed disputes over those "millions", and even the CPC—which today bashes the Cultural Revolution at every turn and even puts the very name in quotation marks—has not taken the numbers for the Cultural Revolution beyond about 40 thousand. But these debates should be fought out in the respective articles on the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, not here. Shorne 02:10, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Image:CPCflag.PNG

How can that be the flag of the Communist Party of China if that is the flag of the U.S.S.R... Squash 05:01, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

not quite. there's no star and the hammer and sickle are slightly different shaped (rounder and wider than soviet version)--Ji ang 08:08, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I see. Looks like I learnt some new, thanks. Squash 08:39, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] disputed

The factual accuracy of this article is disputed.
Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. (March 2008)

There is a dispute between two versions. To see the other version: [1], to compare: [2]

— Insta ntnood 03:52, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

This paragraph seems to be centered too much on one particular source.

Roadrunner 05:25, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Evolution and Expansion of the CPC

Many changes have taken place within the party over the decades, as is documented in nine scholarly articles (jiuping) compiled by syndicated international newspaper The Epoch Times English Chinese. There is debate over whether party membership is on the rise or decline. During the months of March and April in 2005, it was reported that over 1 million Chinese had submitted written statements to withdraw from the Chinese Communist Party, at a rate of over 20,000 per day.[3]

Epoch Times is a biased pro-Falun Gong newspaper, and many of it's articles are without any sourcing. Falun Gong's intentions are to decrease the spotlight to China so FLG can receive more attention. It's methods are dubious, since many of them are online signatures without any IDs and you don't have to be a member of the party to sign. You don't quote 'facts' from a neo-Nazi site on a article on the Holocaust do you? I doubt that China is still Maoist, and belong in that catagory, or the accuracy of the link to 'Nine Commentaries'

Have you done your research? People have done several studies as to whether this is the case. In fact, The Epoch Times even has a FAQ in which you can get the answers to your questions about their newspaper. Have you actually read the Nine Commentaries? I checked out it's historical facts and they are all 100% legit. It seems that everyone knows about China's horrible Human Rights violations except Chinese citizens themselves (the ones being trampled on). Do you even know that China employs the largest internet (among other media of course) censorship in the world? Sounds like you are kept in the fog, if not a part of it... Mas5353 19:15, 2005 May 18 (EST)

You are blinded by your hatred of China, and there is nothing different between you and JoeM. Maybe you should provide links to your so called 'studies'. Also where are the footnotes or the FAQ? FLG's aim is to isolate China and cut it off from foreign media so its economy would collapse, and so that FLG can convert as many people as they can. They called the CCP an 'anti-universal force', 'evil spirit from Europe', and 'red dragon from the Bible', which makes China's claims of FLG being anti-China and a political organization correct. Their sources come from either FOX News or the hundreds of anti-communist books out there. They even count Japanese soldiers killed in WWII as 'killed by communism'. They even deliberately distort historical facts, such as that it's the KMT and Chiang that did the anti-Japanese fighting, while the CCP did nothing but attack KMT. That is bullcrap. Also they replaced communists persecuted by the Nazis and McCarthy as 'trade unionists', as if that communists has never been persecuted. Their so called news articles are strongly POV, and they like to use strong adjectives to distort headlines, and baseless figures. They claimed that 60% of Taiwanese people are pro-independent and against the mainland visits, but 60% what Taiwanese people? Chen supporters? I find it funny that that first told people that they only wanted to sue PM Jiang, and now they wanted to overthrow the CCP. 100% legit my ass. What amazes me is that some people actually believe the crap they spew, just because they never heard of it inside China. Their FAQ says crap. I tried to post my views on their propaganda, and they took my post off after several minutes, from people who call themselves 'democratic' LOL. Don't call me a coward or a part of CCP, I'm a liberal Chinese from Australia that's sick of both the CCP and FLG.

Just gonna throw in a comment in passing. Falun Gong practitioners were not against the CCP before the persecution, and have not said anything against it, the party, until the last year or so. After the persection started they refused to stop practicing, and made efforts to expose the reality of the persecution to people inside and outside China. A couple years later the lawsuits started. Now they want people to quit the CCP and learn about its barbaric past and present. It's clear that they're after nothing more than to stop being persecuted. They've tried different peaceful approaches, but have recently found that with the CCP still controlling China it's not going to happen. Mcconn 17:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't you FLG people have your book studies to do and your exercise to do? Oh yeah FLG wikipedia was write-protected so here's a related site to vandalize.

Bayard

User 172.201.168.175, stop deleting other users's posts, or your IP address will be blocked. --211.30.211.93 11:42, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

-When CCP started, members of CCP are mostly influential students or scholars with some working class people (particularly in Shanghai). The goal of Chinese Communist is to get rid off Capitalism and establish a working-class oriented, people-based centralized democracy. In the process of revolution, inevitably there will be struggles against the force of minority Capitalist followers who strip the rights and well-being of Chinese people(and before 1949 CCP fought against Warlordism and foreign imperialism/colonialism since China was semi-colonized at that time in land and rights). It is special in China's condition to include peasants in the Chinese Communist Revolution because Chinese economy relies on agriculture. Peasants were largely affected by landlords in areas of income, tax (with factors from the government) and loan, all privately distributed and requested between the relationship of landlords and peasants. In rural economy, especially China in modern history, there was no working class (but there were goods-exchange commercial activities mainly in cities in Chinese history. Paper money was invented but not all successful) but peasants (who work for landlords and paid by landlords only, there was no social welfare system in Chinese history at all) since China was far away to equip itself to be industrialized till the end of Qing Dynasty. Therefore, Mao Tse Tong incorporated peasant class to the Communist party and CCP ideology and CCP eventually ousted corrupt KMT regime with the support of Chinese people.

[edit] Formation Date

Jung Chang's new book, "Mao: The Unknown Story" argues that the formation of the CCP occurred in 1920, but the date has been skewed. Evidence provided is that Mao was not associated with the party until the 1st party congress in 1921, and therefore the Chinese records were changed to create a link between the formation and Mao. See Page 19-20 for further details.

Perhaps a section is needed outlining this evidence.

So Jung Chang is automatically correct just because she wrote a book about it? She's not even a historian, but an author, and no historian besides her have proved her arguments.

I'm not Chinese, and I have no love at all for the CCP, but I'm alarmed to see Falun Gong cited as a source of commentary about the CCP right in the first paragraph, as if they're some objective authority. Perhaps their website should be linked to at the bottom of the page, but their hate pieces should not be incorporated into the main body. I came here for neutral historical information, not vitriol, even if I agree with it.

Chang and Halliday are useless sources. What they've got hold of is a meeting held in 1920 that was mistakenly reported in Moscow as the formation of a Communist party. Several books mention it, including Mao Tse-tung, ruler of Red China, by Robert Payne. They quote Payne on another matter, supposedly supporting their theory that the famous Luding Bridge crossing never happened. Peng Dehuai is supposed to have been unable to remember the matter, but check the reference and he is talking about something else.

Arif Dirlik's Anarchism in the Chinese Revolution has a lot about the transition of Chinese radicalism from Anarchism to Communism: though it is hardly news, Mao mentions it in Red Star Over China. There were definitely Chinese who considered themselves Communists in 1920, but not regularly organised. Phillip Short's Mao: A Life says that the 1st Congress settled what sort of party it was to be. Mao was present as one of two delegates from a Hunan Communist group, which had maybe 10 members out of 53 for all China. It was very small at first, but grew.

Yes, a history is needed. But ignore Chang and Halliday, whose vast reading list does not reflect much critical judgement.

--GwydionM 19:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I have corrected the date of origin from 1920 to 1921. Other sources overwhelmingly say 1921, with vague beginnings in 1920. If someone wants to summarise Chang and Halliday's objections to the Received Standard version, fine, let them do so. I've already indicated why I don't take them seriously. --GwydionM 19:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with GwydionM - There are many issues with the recent Jung Chang and Jon Halliday book - chief among them is the fact that they do not attribute enough credit to the Comintern in the formation and early years of the CCP. In terms of hte formation of the Party - Hans Van de Ven's work - From Friend to Comrade demonstrates the indigenous roots of the CCP, but a more nuanced view, combining the Comintern-CCP relations is rather missing in the literature. Views expressed by Tony Saich are a stepping stone to such a synthesis. 86.134.203.245 22:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Largest political party

I heard somewhere that the US Democratic Party has about 64 million registered members. Doesn't that make it larger than the CPC? DHN 08:49, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Is that members or registered voters? I live in the UK, but I've a notion that voters register for party primaries which make a lot of the key choices, without actually being members in the normal sense.--GwydionM 19:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

That would be registered voters, not members. RebelAt 12:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gov.cn

I changed the external link to the offical website of CCP to www.gov.cn (actual ccp website) from ccponline.net which is what it was before. 70.68.234.153 04:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

This is certainly a mistake in my view as gov.cn is the Chinese Government's home page and not the CCP's homepage (if the moderators decide to keep this reference is should be made very clear, what the link is about). Also in this case it would be better to refer to The Peoples Daily English site - as the newspaper at least is a Party paper and has some info on the CCP; you will be very hard pressed to find anything at all on the ccp at gov.cn.

[edit] Ideological evolution of the CPC

To sort of continue the stupid flamewar above: the evolution of the Party ideology ought to be more comprehensively addressed. I'm not enough of an expert, but I presume the founding ideology must have been heavily indebted to Marx and Lenin, wartime ideology to the military philosophy of Mao and others, the fifties to Stalinism and pragmatic economic goals, the late fifties to Mao's death marked by internal party conflicts, and post-Mao to solidified governance and economic growth. Of course, I don't really know what I'm talking about and the above could be expanded upon in detail. It would be appreciated if anyone who knows about these things could work on it. --Easytoremember 08:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Could the CCP be considered to be evolving from communism towards fascism?

I know fascism's thrown around as an epithet a lot these days, and that's not the way I mean it... But as it sheds its communist ideology, the CCP has moved towards a more nationalist ideology, and towards a moderately free market in which the State remains all powerful, but chooses to respect private property and such. Both those things were characteristic of Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy rather than the Eastern Bloc or other communist nations. I'm just saying. 76.106.145.195 (talk) 02:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Full list of the departments which directly belongs to the Central Committee of Communist Party of China?

Besides some main departments such as Other central organizations include

The Central Military Commission

The Discipline Inspection Commission,

The International Liaison Department

The United Front Work Department

The Organization Department

The Propaganda Department .....in China,there're more Departements directly belongs to the Central Committee,I think that.

Can anyone show me this full list? Thanks, --Redflowers 06:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ideologist of the Communist Party of China?

In this 16 th PSC,who's the main ideologist of the Communist Party of CHina? Can anyone show me the answer? Thanks, --Redflowers 06:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

-- Li Changchun is in charge of ideology, although the job is much less important than 10 or 25 years ago. -- David O'Rear --

The CPC seems to be an oligarchy, not that much of a personality cult, you know. Elle _{vécut heureuse} ^{à jamais} (Be eudaimonic!) 03:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A un known SuJiaTun Issue

Some people believe that the chinese communist party or the ccp is removing people organs for profit. can anyone tell me if its true.

FalunDafa Hao

It is...but it isn't. They're removing organs from executed prisoners, or thats all I could uncover myself. It does not appear they're taking organs from anyone else, though. Here is an article about the subject: Harper's Magazine article on organ removal. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 11:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

If you are "FalunDafa Hao", then you already believe it. Don't pretend, it runs contraire to your "truth" doctrine. 151.201.132.210 04:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Futhermore, I believe a lot of the allegations come from a Falun Dafa-funded Newspaper, the Epoch Times. User:children_of_the_dragon 04:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Persecution of Falun Gong and others

I am surprised there is nothing here about the CCP's human rights violations against all kinds of religous and spiritual groups, a notable one being Falun Gong. Has adding this content been opposed, and for any reasons? The Olympics are coming up in 2008 and the CCP has been accused of harvesting organs from living Falun Gong practitioners for profit, not to mention the other things they have been doing to them. At the very least there should be some information about this in the criticism section. I will get to work on it soon. Respond if you have some ideas. [[User: asdfg12345|asdfg12345--201.235.83.171 03:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)]]

Funny that the fulundafa do not think they are any kind of religion themself, and some tips for you: if your goal is to let people believe crap like organ harvesting of falungong people, dont mention unrelated things like the olympics, and dont register with a name like asdfg12345.

The so-called "organ harvest" has very little factual basis and thus would be inappropriate to include in an encyclopedia. So far there has been no evidence supporting these theories, except those from the Falun Gong group - a highly questionable and biased source. Even Harry Wu, a famous Chinese dissident who has written books exposing the Chinese labor camps, considers these allegations to be fallacious.

Oughtn't you sign your comments? Have you read the Kilgour-Matas report? It's pretty obvious that this is happening, right? Besides Harry Wu and the CCP denying it, the claims should be reported, shouldn't they? --Asdfg12345 12:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Please use carefulness in your understanding Falun Gong propaganda - if fictional account is on Wikipedia, credibility will damage, also I must advise those with administrator power that commercial opportunity may be facilitated by your cooperation with official Chinese factual and neutral viewpoint. I do not represent official Chinese Government, but I state facts you need understand. Wen Hsing 21:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe a lot of the allegations come from a Falun Dafa-funded Newspaper, the Epoch Times. User: children_of_the_dragon 04:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Children of the dragon (talk • contribs)

[edit] CPC v. CCP

Obviously, since this article is entitled the CPC, and that is what the party refers to itself as of late, CPC is the appropriate abbreviation. However, traditionally in English the party has been called the CCP, even by the party itself (see e.g. any copy of Peking Review from the 1960s or 1970s), and that appellation continues to be in use in historical writing and in journalism today. It is therefore appropriate for wikipedia to follow this convention and refer to the party as the Chinese Communist Party. I suspect that the change to CPC was an innovation of the Deng era. In most historical articles I have therefore reverted the references to what is the accepted norm (CCP), with the exception of this article. I hope this is reasonable and acceptable. Cripipper 13:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No, the name was CP of China, also during the Mao era. --Soman 13:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I cannot say whether that is the case or not for sure from where I am at the moment, but the general usage in official sources, such as Peking Review, was CCP. Cripipper 18:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, hold on - I have just dug out a copy of Mao's 'Little Red Book' that I forgot I had here, and it refers to the Chinese Communist Party. Cripipper 18:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hold up - it refers to both, but CCP is far more commonly used than CPC. Cripipper 18:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you have evidence on print media being published in the present "overwhelmingly" referring to the Communist Party of China as CCP? [4] Western media uses "Communist Party" and Chinese media uses "Communist Party of China". Perhaps the history books you are reading were not published in the past decade?--Jiang 19:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

A search on the New York Times website for CCP pulls up 500 references, CPC pulls up 30; the ratio is 3:1 for the Times of London. And no, contemporary historians use CCP. Cripipper 20:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

There has to be a differentiation here: The name of party is, and always was, 'Communist Party of China'. However it is refered as the Chinese Communist Party. --Soman 09:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I had been thinking about that semantic distinction. It is a slightly odd self-referential term which I guess has been dropped in the Chinese media within the past twenty years or so. Cripipper 14:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

What is the source for the official English name?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 22:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

See the following official CPC websites:

http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/ "News on Chinese Communist Party" (run by the People's Daily, the CPC's official mouthpiece);
http://www.idcpc.org.cn/ "International Department Central Committee of CPC";
http://www.china.org.cn/english/index.htm "China's Official Gateway" (run by CPC Propaganda Department)
http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/45954.htm "An Illustrated History of the Communist Party of China".

Among these websites, the party is referred to variously as "the Chinese Communist Party " or "Communist Party of China". However, the abbreviation is always "CPC", as reflecting the official English name, "Communist Party of China". --Sumple (Talk) 00:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Those are official sources which use the name "CPC". But what is the source which says that "Communist Party of China" is the official name?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 02:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Good question. The CPC doesn't seem to have an official party website as such. The closest thing I could find was this: the Party Constitution as listed on the International Department website, [5], which uses Communist Party of China throughout. --Sumple (Talk) 02:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The link with the quotations referencing CCP, actually has Communist Party of China written in its banner at the top. Having written a graduate paper which involved the Chinese Communists this year, I think the safest thing to say is that when speaking in historical terms, CCP is most often used in academia. In fact, Mao's Last Revolution by Roderick MacFarquhar and Michael Schoenhals [6], published this year by Harvard, uses CCP.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 04:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The historians I've personally encountered also use "Guomindang" "GMD" over "Kuomintang" "KMT", "Peking" over "Beijing", and "Canton" over "Guangzhou"...but this doesn't mean wikipedia should adopt these same conventions. Historians seems slower to adapt than journalists, and in the case of the GMD, I don't know what's going on...--Jiang 02:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weird Al

Somebody stated that the Pary was cofounded by Weird Al Yankovich. Of course, this is ridiculous; it's not funny, so don't vandalise. Removed.

You mean Weird Al isn't Mao Zedong reincarnated? There's my whole world-view destroyed.Gjmulder (talk) 16:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Main influence

The article states that the CPC was the main influence, which I believe is slightly overstating the facts. Maoists were numerous but not the majority AFAIU. I'm not changing it, just asking for sources. "From the sixties until the death of its principal leader, Mao Zedong, the CPC was the main inspiration for the worldwide communist social movement." Prezen 14:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree, the statement above needs a citation, and so does the last sentence in the second paragraph, which has an inline HTML link which cannot be accessed without a "muse" password. I have marked these two places as requiring citations. If the contributor(s) cannot provide citations, these statements should be removed. See: Wikipedia:Verifiability and Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information. - Ryanjo 20:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Term "ChiCom"

I recently encountered the term "ChiComs" in an article. Now, I "know" that this means Chinese Communists, but being a pedant, I wanted to check. I surprised to find that I was unable to find any reliable online source to confirm this. Can anybody find a good cite for this and add a quick note to the article (or elsewhere in Wikipedia or Wiktionary, as appropriate)? (I see that "Chicom" and "ChiCom" redirect here, but the actual definition's not in the article.) Surely this definition should be online, and what better place than on Wikipedia / Wiktionary? -- 201.50.254.243 14:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If I've ever come across this term, it was momentary, and I've forgotten it since. Rather than reference it in the article, I'd propose it'd be better to go to the articles which use it and put in the full "Chinese Communist." The terminology is certainly not used in academic circles or publications with concern to the topic. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 15:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

"The terminology is certainly not used in academic circles or publications with concern to the topic." Well, it depends on what you mean by "publications with concern to the topic." -- 13 Google hits for use of the abbreviation in published articles, from the archives of well-known / influential conservative commentator John Derbyshire -- http://www.google.com/search?q=+site:www.olimu.com+olimu+chicoms -- Also, please do not miss my point. I did not ask whether occurrences of "ChiCom" in Wikipedia should be changed to "Chinese Communist", I asked whether anybody had a good cite for the abbreviation so that we could include its definition somewhere in Wikipedia or Wiktionary. Thank you. -- 201.50.254.243 21:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I did a general google search on "ChiCom" and it appears to be a termed used mainly by conservative political commentators. When I said publications of note, I meant to refer to major academic journals on China and East Asian history. I wrote my master's thesis in part on the Chinese Communists last spring and I know that my adviser would have had my neck for not using the full term Chinese Communist. With regard to the question, you might try searching for a site that has definitions of political terminology or even perhaps, the Urban Dictionary. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 23:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It is listed in Urban Dictionary, however I'd consider that to be pretty much the diametric opposite of a reliable source. :-) As I said in my OP, I looked but wasn't able to find any reliable-source definition online. -- 201.50.254.243 14:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for not thinking of this earlier. If you can't find an on-line source, but you do have access to a library (a collegiate library all the better), you could look it up and then cite the source. Its the next best thing. ~ (The Rebel At) ~ 23:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Respectful warn to all 'cowboy' newsmakers

I like to respectful warn of you to avoid defame the admired Communist Party of China, or great nation People's Republic of China. To do so creates many problem between our government and Wikipedia, as well as general relation with the West. I do not intend making threat, but I obligated to warn you that commercial operations of Wikipedia in People's Republic of China is dependent on government tolerance, and Administrator Jimmy Wales should be aware, he may need to use power assist in producing editorial environment conducive to Wikipedia in China, especially Taiwan Province related article. Wen Hsing 21:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, we need to Make Benefit Glorious Nation of ~~Kazakhstan~~ China. However, Wikipedia is a noncommercial project, not a "commercial operation", and, unlike Google and Yahoo, it does not yield to governmental censorship (or "content refinement" as you like to euphemize it elsewhere) that is contrary to its Neutral Point of View policy, even if that causes difficulty in international relations. *Dan T.* 14:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not suggest make film defaming China as Mr Borat Sagdiyev for Kazakhstan has made. It is showing disrespect, more proper diplomatic channel for detailing of concerns may be use.Wen Hsing 20:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If the Chinese government wants to block information on the internet out of concern for its image, they can do it. However, remember, Wikipedia exists to bring knowledge, all knowledge, to those who seek it. It certainly has its own ups and downs, but regardless of the opinion of the Communist Party of China or the United States government, if its true it belongs on here. :)

~ (The Rebel At) ~ 21:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I complete agreement, truthfulness should be supreme on Wikipedia Project, bias must be purged both if pro- or anti-Wen Hsing 21:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"Power assist to the people!" --Sumple (Talk) 00:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

How do we handle the trolls, class?

- We don't feed them!

That's right, class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_is_a_troll#Not_feeding_the_trolls

-- 201.50.254.243 12:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I am offend by your implication of my ugliness! You unable to see me, why you judging troll! If you disagreeing with friendship between Great Nations, I hope with sincerity your effort is a fail. Wen Hsing 17:45, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The fact that you refer to english newspapers as "cowboy newsmakers" doesn't help with your "warning" to stop defaming the Communist party of China. I don't think anybody here is insulting the communist party. Good friend100 19:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

LOL. I love this. Some TWese dude pretend to be a commie official and other people actually buy it. This is hilarious. 151.201.132.210 04:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, this is really funny. Thanks for being so hilarious, Wen Hsing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.100.147.28 (talk) 00:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Three Reverts

In case you're wondering why I had to revert three separate times in succession ...

Reppu Fighter enclosed the entire page in nested comment tags and essentially replaced the article with a Japanese flag. I screwed up the first revert by not removing all the comment tags.

I screwed up the second revert by reverting to a previous version by Colipon -- the most up-to-date version was edited by TAIWAN.

Hopefully I got it right this time... =) Leaf of Silver 18:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maoism

I don't know if the Maoism template really fits on this article. The current Communist Party is anything but Maoist both in institution and in ideology. Therefore, I think it should be removed. Colipon+(T) 03:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Colipon, while I agree with you that the current party in action is anything but, I would have to say it should still stay, due to the fact is is an "official" guiding ideology and part of the constitution. (Majin Takeru 16:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

Right. I am only afraid that it could mislead people who simply scan the article because the banner is so prominent. Colipon+(T) 07:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disagree with this statement

There is also a common misconception that Communist Party members are supportive of their party's policies, and that the party line is united nationally. In fact, many regional party organizations pursue their own ideological deviants from the conventional ideologies promoted by the party, and can be antagonistic to the party at the national level.

There are a lot of situations in which local party groupings will pursue interests different from the national line, but I know of no cases in which a regional party has pursued an *ideology* that differs substantially from Beijing. If anyone doesn't, examples are needed.

Roadrunner 05:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is a "One party" state sustainable?

Q/ Is a one party system sustainable, and how will it effect the future development of China - possible partition, economic stagnation, stifling of dissent and fossilisation of "the system". Is this linked to China's struggle to adapt to the 19th and 20th Centuries? Teh path set out on by Sun Yatsen(sp?) is not completed yet? How will China manage to modernise without shattering?

Anonxx.xx.xx.xx 13:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

John Lee wrote a great book about this called "Will China Fail?", recently published in September 2007. It's about the inherent contradiction with the regime in China currently, between attempting to foster a free-market economy on the one hand, but not enshrining any individual rights, such as to land, law, belief, etc., on the other. The Party is running the show, and there are deep contradictions in its economic and political alignment. Something like 1 trillion dollar debt because of non-performing loans, which is only growing, because they can't afford to not keep lending to state-owned enterprises which are terribly inefficient and from whom they are able to recover very little of the loan, otherwise there will be more riots. The regime is really beset by troubles on all sides, and as I understand it from this book, the only thing that is sustaining them is the unparalleled growth. Though Lee says this is simply unsustainable (see inherent contradictions). An alternative perspective in this article, one backed up now by a growing body of scholarly literature, would be quite fitting and appropriate at this point. Any takers? Will Hutton wrote a book addressing this issue also.--Asdfg12345 15:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

In answer to the first portion of your question, I blieve it would help to look at the other one party rules that occued in the 20th century. (i.e. Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, USSR under Stalin, so on in this fashion) Most of these countries were sustainable, and in the sense of the first two came to power based almost solely on their ability to create a stable society in the turmoil of post WWI society. In most cases these one party states failed in their massively nihtmarish foreign policies, which led to a war that became a drain on their economies. In answer to your second question, China's struggles to adapt to a modern world has deep rooted issues based on their early allegiance to Confuscius, among other factors too numerous to discuss here. If you want a concise and excellent source on the course of modern China (end on Ming dynasty to the present), you should read Jonathan Spence's "In Search of Modern China". Its a bit of a lengthy read, about 700 pages, but your understanding of China will grow by leaps and bounds. He discusses at length all of the questions you have posed. FelixTiberius (talk) 04:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a registered user (yet), so take this was you will:

I believe that in Italy, Germany, Russia and Spain, one-party states failed because they met at least one of two criteria:

1. The state in question had a past history of political rights & freedoms, including a functional democracy (Germany, Italy); OR

2. The state in question was used to looknig outside for ideas, in ways that China is not (Russia - looked to West for many many years; Spain - looked to anyand all Catholic nations for ideas, allies and inspiration).

Basically, the point that I'm getting at here is that in these nations, people either remembered the experience of political freedoms, or were at least not "locked into" an automatic rejection of ideas that came from elsewhere (or both!).

Neither of these apply to China; therefore, I believe that the CCP's rule can certainly be sustained for many more years to come. Whether it will hold up forever is, ultimately, dependant on the answer to one question: will Chinese people absorb Western ideas along with their goods, services and capital? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.7.248.130 (talk) 06:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] olol

Is "olol" in the following sentence a proper word, and if so what does it mean?

Since the 1980s, as its commitment to Marxist ideology has appeared to wane, the party has begun to increasingly invoke Chinese nationalism as a legitimizing principle olol as opposed to the socialist construction for which the party was originally created.

130.226.143.244 (talk) 11:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks like someone trying to do laughing out loud (lol). The sentence works without "olol" so feel free to delete it. It shan't be missed.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 17:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:China, Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao (10).jpg

The image Image:China, Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao (10).jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --22:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Internal or external groupings

This section needs work. In the 1990s and early 2000s, there was a school of thought that divided the leadership into the ‘elitist’ or ‘Shanghai clique’ and the ‘populist coalition’ or ‘Youth League faction’. With the change from Jiang Zemin to Hu Jintao, this distinction is no longer adequate. Moreover, it takes a brief slice of post-1949 history and uses it to define a broad concept. I suggest a section on factions that covers at least the post-1949 period, rather than just this very brief part. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits

I've made a few changes in the history. One is replacing the influence of the Soviet Union with that of the Comintern (which was the source of the Dutch, German and Russian advisers). DOR (HK) (talk) 08:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hidden category: Accuracy disputes from March 2008

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