Talk:Colossal Cave Adventure
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[edit] Misc
It's amazing how much trivial knowledge one accumulates over the years. --Uncle Ed
Wasn't there also a maze of twisty little passages, all the same? -Martin
'all alike', yes. It's rather better known, as it comes early in the game. Matthew Woodcraft
moved from Talk:Plugh
I spent a whole day one at the computer center (in 1974!!) creating a complete map of Collossal Cave. It took 4 sheets of line printer paper.
Surely it was this level of attention to detail that made me what I am now :-) Uncle Ed
My brother was a computer programmer back in the days when they used stacks of cards. He introduced me to the cave. He was utterly astounded when I solved his fissure problem with "wave wand" - blimey, what else do you with a wand?
HOWEVER, my reason for bursting into print here is that the top outside link - supposedly to an online version - is now the splash page for a car-body protectant, with this opening line:
This site is designed for New Car Dealers and their representatives.
- Another tribute to the game, but disappointing to devotees!
- robinp 21:54, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I believe many people called this genre "Text Adventures." So it might be worth mentioning somewhere?
Yeah, Adventure doesn't really fall into the category of Interactive Fiction. True interactive fiction has a plot, characters, etc. Adventure's just fun and games and treasure. And annoying little dwarves. Alinnisawest (talk) 22:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Why is there a thing at the top saying there should be box art or an application icon?! It was never sold, thus meaning it never had a box to put art on, and it was written before desktops, so no application icons either! Alinnisawest (talk) 22:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Dwarves in original version?
The interactive fiction article describes Crowther's original version of Adventure as "more or less realistic," stating that later reviser Don Woods added fantasy elements like LOTR. This article states that Crowther's version of the game, however, "[featured] ... fantasy elements such as axe throwing dwarves." Did the dwarves come in in Crowther's original version, or was that part of Woods' additions? Jdavidb 19:17, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- There were no dwarves in the original, it was a simulation of a real cave. Mark Richards 15:18, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Mark, it's not correct that Crowther's original game was simply a simulation. In his capacity as a cartographer for the Cave Research Foundation, Crowther created a realistic hand-drawn map based on survey data and his own extensive knowledge of that area. He then stopped caving with CRF abruptly, and began creating the text game, which did follow the realistic topography of the map, AND included fantasy elements. Don Woods certainly expanded the fantasy. --Dennis G. Jerz 00:02, 29 January 2006 (UTC)--
I came across a version of this game where if you type a swear word it replies "careful, the dwarves have virgin ears"
I have a version of the game that I think is either the original source code or something shortly thereafter, and all seven dwarves (and their giant mirror) are there. Oooo how I hated those annoying little dwarves! Alinnisawest (talk) 22:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] XYZZY redirects to this article
Mark my words: I was sorely tempted to replace the redirect with the words "nothing happens." --Ardonik(talk) 17:33, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)
- Done. :) 70.240.115.234 03:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
-
- Watch and see: the humo[u]r police will be all over your ass like white on rice!
-
- Atlant 12:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Maze of twisty little passages
In my version (Graham Nelson's one for Inform) there are only eleven variations, not twelve. The phrase "little twisting maze of passages" is not present. Perhaps this one was a later addition? Eric119 23:19, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Dates
There seems to be a bit of confusion about the dates that various early versions were created. The article originally stated that Crowther created his vector maps in 1972 but the game (which was completely separate) was available from 1975, with Woods releasing his version in 1976. The adventure game article (before it was removed in an unrelated edit) claimed that Crowther's version was in 1972 and that Woods discovered the game 4 years later (in 1976). Is there a reliable source of info for this, and also for the 'dwarf elements' that the article claims were added by Crowther (although it is more likely to be Woods)? (see above). --HappyDog 00:01, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You are right, there is much confusion regarding the dates. I have corresponded with both Crowther and Woods by e-mail, and interviewed a half dozen people who remember playing Crowther's original version (including Crowther's daughters). I have two forthcoming articles on Adventure, in which I try to set the record straight, but I realize this article needs better citation than my personal word. For now, I can point to http://www.avventuretestuali.com/interviste/woods-eng, where Woods says that xyzzy "was in Crowther's version," so that is some basic outside evidence that Crowther's original version was more than a rigid simulation -- it contained the famous magic word. Neils Eric Wille published a good analysis of the conflicting information regarding the dates. http://akira.ruc.dk/~new/tekster/Adventure.pdf Nick Montfort also addresses the chronology in Twisty Little Passages. The thing that always troubled me was that part of the Adventure lore was that Crowther created the game after a sudden divorce, yet that the Crowthers were described as happily married in The Longest Cave, Brucker and Watson's classic book about the exploration of Mammoth Cave National Park (in which Will Crowther is a supporting character and his then-wife Patricia is a lead character). The Longest Cave was published in 1976, and does not mention the game. Further, the Crowther children (born in 1967 and 1970) recall being being eight and five/six (respectively) when they first played their father's game (again for now I can only cite my own personal telephone conversations with these sources). That would put it at about 1975 or 76, which is also the range Crowther gave me when I asked him via e-mail (he said 1975, "give or take a year," and all parties have confirmed that the divorce happened in the middle of 1975). Don Woods has given a date of 1976 for his release of the collaborative version http://www.avventuretestuali.com/interviste/woods-eng, but the earliest extant version of the program is dated 1977. Prof jerz 05:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
For the record, my findings about the dates of Adventure have been published in Digital Humanities Quarterly. If the above note is part of this article has been flagged as having unsourced claims, that research has been published now. Prof jerz 05:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Anecdotal paragraphs in article - thoughts?
I have just removed The following text from the article page, as it is largely anecdotal in nature, however I think some of the information about the naming of rooms etc. could be incorporated into the article if it can be verified. -- HappyDog 04:09, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
According to caver Mel Park:
"Bedquilt was Willie (Crowther)'s favorite part of the cave system. I still have a copy of his map of it. Computer types who grew up exploring ADVENTURE don't realize how accurately the game represents passages in Bedquilt Cave.
"Yes, there is a Hall of the Mountain King and a Two-Pit Room. The entrance is indeed a strong steel grate at the bottom of a twenty-foot depression.
Mel describes how caver Bev Schwartz got her start:
"On a survey trip to Bedquilt, a member of my party mentioned she would one day like to go on a trip to Colossal Cave, where she understood the game ADVENTURE was set.
"No, I said, the game is based on Bedquilt Cave and we are going there now. Excitement!
"Throughout the cave, she kept up a constant narrative, based on her encyclopedic knowledge of the game. In the Complex Room (renamed Swiss Cheese Room in Advent) she scrambled off in a direction I had never been.
"'I just had to see Witt's End,' she said upon returning. "It was exactly as I expected."
"When we finished with our work, I let her lead out, which she did flawlessly, again because she had memorized every move in the game. Believe me, the cave is a real maze, and this was an impressive accomplishment for a first-time visitor."
The above quote is from an email I recieved from Mel Park, who also sent me a CRF newsletter recounting the same anecdote which, sadly, I seem to have lost. Not sure this helps. --Rickadams (talk) 02:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the cave anecdote belongs in the article. I've checked the story with Bev Schwartz via e-mail; she has a version on her website: http://www.ir.bbn.com/~bschwart/bedquilt.html The article has appeared in a few caver publications, according to this version:http://www.caves.org/section/hss/pu94v81.htm Dennis G. Jerz (talk) 03:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Other ports
I recall playing this on a Commodore PET but I can't find any reference to this version: anyone else have a clue? (FWIW I was spectacularly bad at it, but in my defence I was only 11 years old :-) --Phil | Talk 10:35, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
Over 30 years later, I believe it's safe to come out of the closet. I believe that I was probably the first to port Advent to the CDC 6000/Cyber 70 series of machines running SCOPE 3.4 or NOS/BE 1.0 sometime early in 1976. I obtained a PDP-10 tape from a friend who at the time was a field engineer with DEC. I translated the tape into CDC Display code and modified the program to compile and run with FTN 4.0.
I seriously thought that I would get fired, as the game spread like wildfire with many hours of CPU time getting wasted by employees at the Sunnyvale Systems Division. Naturally, copies made it to Arden Hills ChuckGuzis 02:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Chuck
We used to play this under VM/CMS on an IBM mainframe. I recently came across messages from Lynn Wheeler of garlic.com, that stated that he was looking for the code for this game. We did a search and found the code and executable. The executable has an internal date stamp that it was compiled on the 297th day of 1978. On the basis of that I have added text to the ports section stating that it was ported to VM/CMS in late 1978. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sysmg (talk • contribs) 16:23, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] In-line binary file
It is clearly inappropriate to include a link to a binary file in-line with the text for an article (and yes, a gzipped file is a binary file, even if its contents are not). Anyone clicking on that link would be expecting further information about that particular version of the game, not a direct link to its source code. In fact I can't see why 98% of readers would be interested in a link to the source code at all! As a compromise I have moved the link to the 'external links' section of the article, although I am firmly in favour of removal, or at least linking to a page that contains further links to all available ports. --HappyDog 18:29, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Plugh
In the Plugh subsection, there is a one line paragraph that states:
- Some games recognize "plugh" and will respond to it, usually by making a joke.
Does this mean other games that are not versions of Adventure? cf Zork's response to 'XYZZY'. Just looking for clarification. LarryMac 23:19, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Not all games are simply variants of Colossal Caves adventure (ADVENT). Zork (DUNGEON) info can be found elsewhere on Wikipedia.
BTW I'm somewhat disappointed with the lack of 'hgulp' references here.
- Well thanks, anonymous unsigned person, but perhaps my question was not clear. However, my point was that I don't think the quoted sentence from the article is clear. The preceding paragraph in the "Plugh" section was referring to various versions of Adventure, then we have this new sentence that just says "some games". As written, it could have meant "some of the many variations on this particular game." The subsequent section about "XYZZY" specifically mentions "Many other interactive fiction games contain responses to the command XYZZY as a tribute to Adventure," which makes the reference explicit.
- In any event, the footnote that has been added in the year+ since I asked the question makes the situation much clearer. In fact, I might rewrite that offending sentence now. --LarryMac 21:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
-
- Yes, other games utterly unrelated to Adventure respond to plugh. Zork does, and so do most text adventures. There's actually a webpage somewhere, it may be on Baf's Guide, that lists the responses to plugh and xyzzy for virtually every game in the Interactive Fiction Archive (which is a lot of games!). Most say something along the lines of "A hollow voice says, 'Fool.'", but some are quite innovative. Alinnisawest (talk) 22:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed a reference to "plugh" being short for "plughole," in part because there was no citation for that reference, and in part because of the Occam's Razor principle. It's POSSIBLE that PLUGH is short for PLUGHOLE... just as it's POSSIBLE that XYZZY is short for XYZZYBOOYAH, but unless someone comes up with a citation, I've moved that speculation to this page. (The theory is that PLUGHOLE is consistent with the geological realism of the original game, and that due to the limitations of the five-character parser, PLUGH had to substitute for PLUGHOLE.) Dennis G. Jerz (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Kingdom of Loathing
We need a consensus on whether to include the information about the online game Kingdom of Loathing. Either the word plugh or xyzzy is involved in this game, but some say that it is a secret and should not be published in Wikipedia. Others notice that the information is missing from the article, and immediately add it. The comment has popped in and out of the history twice, as it has been added and deleted. There is also a lack of clarity as to whether it is plugh or xyzzy that is involved. I have seen the claim that it used to be plugh, and is now xyzzy, but at one point that was changed to the statement that it is plugh. - J Alexander D Atkins 11:55, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Related to this, an anon just added the following: "plugh is the new secret cheat in the strange leaflet for kingdom of loathing." I am moving that here because it isn't verified. If it can be, I have no objection to having it added back, phrased in a way that gives it context. Jonathunder 02:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
-
- The code used to be xyzzy. Over a year ago (actually, nearly two now), it was changed to the other. It is considered an Easter egg by the admins of the game, and spoiling it is highly frowned upon. Even notable spoiler sites like KoL Coldfront and the KoL Wiki are loathe to spoiler it. Yes, I can verify it.. No, I don't think it belongs in the article. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Elves?!
Were there really elves in the game? Maybe in 550 rather than 350? I just got done with 350 (again), and I swear: no elves nor mention of elves.
- At least one longer version had elves. Jonathunder 02:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
- I suspect you are thinking of the version by Level 9, which had an extended endgame where you have to free some elves from being imprisoned by dwarves. This was a commercial version which ran on a number of early 80's home computers (Sinclair Spectrum, Commodore 64, BBC Micro etc) and is almost certainly the best-known version in the UK. Jon Rob 08:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
It's part of a static message that signals a final win -- "[A] cheering band of friendly elves carry the conquering adventurer off into the sunset." --Dennis G. Jerz 00:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Which simply begs the question again, in what version? --Mathwizard1232 05:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- The 350 version has "friendly elves" when you win. 65.66.221.226 23:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Citation in lead
To whoever (IP) left the note in the lead P about there being a source in the other article for that (citation needed) spot - I looked, and I added that in as a cite for the sentence above, but that wasn't actually what I'd meant needed one. I was referring directly to that "it was so accurate that experienced cavers were able to find their way around...", which that source doesn't cover (well, it may in the book, but if so the other article doesn't mention that). So I'm still leaving the needed tag on there. -Goldom ��� ⁂ 00:28, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I have been in Bedquilt, and while my own sense of direction isn't terribly well developed, knowing the game really does help one to navigate in the major sections of the cave. I did not venture very deep into the Maze of Twisty Little Passages, All Different, so I can't vouch for whether every single room in Crowther's original really does map perfectly to the portion of the game he created, Crowther's game was very faithful to the real site -- though I did publish an opposing view, in the form of a quote from Pat Crowther saying that the game simply re-used locations from the real cave. I find Mel Park's anecdote perfectly credible, though as an inexperienced caver I didn't find that my knowledge of the game helped me much -- I was one distracted fanboy on my first experience in a "wild" cave. See paragraphs 75-77 of http://www.digitalhumanities.org/dhq/vol/001/2/000009.html 06:35, 5 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prof jerz (talk • contribs)
[edit] XYZZY
Thought I had some info, I remembered a bot in Unreal Tournament 2004 having a similar name. Found that it was "Syzygy" which is awfully close. Oh well. --Kirbysuperstar 13:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
In the popular IRC client, mIRC, typing /xyzzy will "echo" the words "Nothing happens." This is one of its easter eggs or cookies.
[edit] Image
I don't believe there should be an image of a graphical version of Colossal Cave used in this article, as the game was initially released and is primarily known as a text adventure. I recommend the image be therefore replaced by that of a sample text screen. 23skidoo 16:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Some time ago I did upload a screen shot of a modern version of Crowther's original game. That screenshot was later placed on the "Screenshots of software with missing fair-use rationale," but I have tried to explain that the software is freeware, which is all the fair-use rationale that should be required. Prof jerz 06:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I wrote this in Misc., but I realized it was the wrong place, so I'm rewriting it here: At the top, it says the article needs box art or an application icon. 1) The original ADVENT was never sold commercially, so there was no box to put art on. 2) It was written in the late 1970s when there weren't desktops, thus there is no application icon. The screenshot (which, I agree, is freeware, so no issues there) should be sufficient. Alinnisawest (talk) 22:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Bootif and other items in Adventure
I played a version on the Georgia Tech Cyber 74 (big CDC time-sharing machine) in the late 1970's, perhaps the mentioned F77 version (FORTRAN appeared to be the most-used and best-supported high-level language on that computer) or a variation. At a certain location the game said "There is a bootif here." So, what is a bootif and what can you do with it? If you "<f-word> bootif" it would respond with (perhaps not the exact words) "So you have discovered that the Bootif is a beautiful [bootiful?] woman!" and not object to the use of the obscenity in this particular case.
I'm not sure how or if this tidbit should be added to the article, as the only reference is my memory, though I knew others who played this version and could verify this if I knew how to contact them.
I also remember many of the items that could be found: keys, coins, lantern, vending machine somewhere in the twisty passages (sells batteries when fed coins, to replace the lantern's batteries when its light goes dim), etc., and that you could only 'carry' a certain number of items (perhaps five or seven?) at one time. These are very much an integral part of the game, and part of the goal was to figure out what you needed to carry where to get you through the whole game (which I never quite did). The entry Adventure game mentions early "Text adventures" but also does not mention such items or how they are involved in playing. I think this should be included in the main article (either here or perhaps better in the generic Adventure game entry), as it will give a much better "feel" of how the game is played for anyone who hasn't played such a game, showing how it involves logic, learning and deduction about the game's aspects, and that it's not just figuring out which way to go in an invisible maze. Benbradley 03:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Swearing and "Watch it!"
The game responds to a frustrated player's swearing with watch it!
I remember in the Commodore 16 version the response was: WATCH IT! THE WIZARD IS WATCHING YOU!
Can anyone confirm if this was the definitive response on other platforms? --Air 17:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 350 points
From out of nowhere the article starts talking about the "definitive 350 point version" and the "550 point version" and so forth. This doesn't make any sense because there's no context. I assume it refers to the greatest number of points you can amass, but it's not made clear. I think this has arisen because the people writing this article are too familiar with the subject. -Ashley Pomeroy 17:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
The original game had 350 points; later versions were expanded to 550 or even 750 points. -Alinnisawest —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.48.39 (talk) 23:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Early versions
I've been looking at the Fortran source for ADVENT.EXE (the version that Don Woods wrote for the DECsystem-10, referred to here as the "350-point version", which I played on a DECsystem-10 no later than 1977) and it may be worth adding something to the page to correct the misapprehension shown in reference 5 that Jim Gillogly wrote the game's introduction crediting Don for the "features". Here's the comment block from the source:
1 THIS PROGRAM WAS ORIGINALLY DEVELOPED BY WILLIE CROWTHER. MOST OF THE
1 FEATURES OF THE CURRENT PROGRAM WERE ADDED BY DON WOODS (DON @ SU-AI).
1 CONTACT DON IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, COMMENTS, ETC.
This was in the code before Jim made his translation into C.
The source code for this version is publicly available from Phil Budne's PDP10 ftp page at ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/ Kay Dekker 20:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but look in hdr.h of Gillogly's source code, which includes a new line that reads, “This program is a re-write of ADVENT, written in FORTRAN mostly by Don Woods of SAIL.” Woods never claimed that he "mostly" wrote Advent -- he has always credited Crowther as the co-author. Yes, the passage you quote did appear on Woods's code before Gillogly ported it. But my point is to suggest that Gillogly's "hdr.h" note may have helped spread the inaccurate notion that Woods is the reason Adventure is a game. Prof jerz 06:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Video" game?
Funny, when I played it on a teletype, I don't remember seeing a monitor anywhere! A final indignity for the early days, sigh... Stan 15:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Speculation on Plugh
I was reading the article on Lankhmar and recalled a character from the TSR game named "Plugh" (though according to the article, it was spelled "Pulgh." It'd be interesting if whoever added the magic words were still around to verify if there was any link or not, or if it indeed was short for "plughole" wouldn't it? ~Kylu (u|t) 06:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 2007 Article on Adventure
Somewhere Nearby is Colossal Cave: Examining Will Crowther's Original "Adventure" in Code and in Kentucky Digital Humanities Quarterly, 1.1 (2007)
Announced here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.int-fiction/browse_thread/thread/607acaf1a279d4dd
It claims that Bedquilt is a "section" of Colossal Cave rather than a nearby cave, and that most sources get the dates wrong. I'm not going to untangle this, but some corrections might be in order.
I believe the dates have been fixed to match Prof. Jerz's understanding, which seems sound.
Prof. Jerz points out a survey map produced by Will and Pat Crowther titled, "Bedquilt Section, Colossal Cave," maintaining that setting the game within Bedquilt Cave is a misconception, and that the game is more properly set in Colossal Cave, if I read him correctly.
A connecting passage from Bedquilt Cave to Colossal Cave was discovered in 1896 [Brucker and Watson, The Longest Cave], after which it was referred to as either Bedquilt Cave, or the Bedquilt entrance to Colossal Cave. Both Bedquilt and Colossal Caves are also entrances to Mammoth Cave.
Mel Park seems confident that the game is set in what he calls Bedquilt Cave: "...Colossal Cave, [was] where she understood the game ADVENTURE was set. 'No,' I said, the game is based on Bedquilt Cave..." [1] Elsewhere he is even more explicit: "The cave is not Colossal, however, but Bedquilt Cave." [2]
Perhaps this is a semantic issue? Does the cave area depicted in the game lie exclusively in the Bedquilt cave/section/entrance, sprawl across Bedquilt and Colossal, or is the majority of the game set in Colossal Cave?
Rickadams (talk)
The entrance depicted in the game is the Bedquilt Entrance to Colossal Cave. Your back door might be said to open up into your kitchen and the first floor of your house, so whether the Bedquilt Entrance leads to Bedquilt Cave or Colossal Cave is not the point. When I was in the Bedquilt region, I saw signs pointing towards the Colossal entrance, and I recall hearing about a party that went in from a different entrance, couldn't get out through the Bedquilt entrance because it was locked, and then had to turn around and go out a different direction. The popular notion of a cave having exactly one entrance and being completely self-contained is just not what you find when you go into the Mammoth Cave region. They're all connected, some through multiple different passageways. Much of the game is set in an imaginary world created by Don Woods, which includes all the rooms created by Crowther. Those rooms created by Crowther are a slightly simplified version of spaces that take up a small portion of the map the Crowthers labeled as "Bedquilt Section, Colossal Cave." It's not labeled as a separate cave, just a section with its own entrance. A different entrance, called Colossal, leads to a different region of the same neighborhood -- a region that Crowther didn't depict. Perhaps if Crowther had kept going, he would have depicted other regions of Colossal Cave, as well, and maybe the player might have emerged through a different exit (something cavers often do). Perhaps, since this was during an era when cavers were aggressively linking up what were previously thought to be separate caves, Crowther was making a point -- that the Bedquilt Entrance would, if you went in the right direction, eventually lead you to Colossal Cave. That's also an implicit argument found in the map title, with the region being marked as a section of Colossal Cave. It's true that Mel Park used language that made the distinction between Colossal Cave and Bedquilt Cave. Park's language was in the context of discussing which entrance the party was taking, so when Park told Schwartz more or less that "We're about to go in through the entrance depicted in the game, so your belief that we were going into a different cave is wrong," I can see the validity of that statement (and it makes a good story, too). However, I wouldn't use Park's phrasing because it conjures up the inaccurate idea that Crowther switched names, or that if you went into Colossal Cave you wouldn't find any of the sites described in the game. Also, since Crowther was the CRF cartographer, I'm inclined to use Crowther's terminology rather than Park's. The game is certainly set in Colossal Cave, and it is also depicts the Bedquilt Entrance. Dennis G. Jerz (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Tom Brucker says (from an email exchange between Tom Brucker, Mel Park, and myself):
"Technically the whole mess is Mammoth Cave, so all the names are subjugated by the system name. We refer to the areas of Mammoth by the entrances we use (except Mammoth itself ) except for the Unknown entrance whose surrogate is the Austin Entrance... In my opinion, Adventure is in Bedquilt, but Willy used Colossal because the name resonates better with the public....what is a 'Bedquilt' anyway they would ask?
"Bedquilt was a separate cave, probably known before Colossal. The entrance was an obvious crouchway before the first gate caused infilling. Colossal was 'discovered' when the platform crossed Colossal Dome from Woodson Adair. The Lee brothers were hired to find a way between Bedquilt and Colossal, which they accomplished easily, however the BQ Route required extensive digging. Using the BQ route the L+N surveyed Grand Ave to its western end, bought the overlying property, and blasted the Colossal entrance. So you see, it is technically the Colossal entrance to Bedquilt Cave, as far as the history goes."
Rickadams (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 03:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Curiouser and curiouser! Thanks, Rick, for following up on this. Dennis G. Jerz (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
