Talk:Claimed Messianic prophecies of Jesus
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This article was nominated for deletion on 2006-10-04. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
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This article was nominated for deletion on 2007-06-26. The result of the discussion was keep. |
[edit] Title
Is the title a little POV in that it apparently takes sides on whether these prophecies were about Jesus. Shouldn't a more neutral title be Claimed Messianic prophecies of Jesus or Messianic prophecies (Christian) or something along those lines?--Andrew c 23:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, although I can't think of anything that isn't absurdly long. AdamBiswanger1 00:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
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- I like Messianic prophecies (Christian). How do you change the name of an article? Ramsquire 17:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- I moved it to 'Messianic prophecy in Christianity'. Bob A 17:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- Any reason why it's no longer Messianic prophecy in Christianity? The current title is extremely POV.RWgirl 21:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Merge
I don't think a merge would be appropriate. A concise summary of this article ought to appear on the main article but this artcile is allready to big to fit into another IMO. Peace. --Home Computer 17:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] An article of missionary rants directed at Jewish scripture with the goal of conversion of Jews
The title "Messianic prophecy in Christianity" where Jewish texts are used as if they were all about Jesus is just as absurd as an article called "Jesus as a prophet only in Islam" instead of the current title Islamic view of Jesus which is NPOV. Obviously, this article would be titled "Christian view of Hebrew Scripture" if Wikipedia were truly NPOV. But I don't expect that to ever occur because the predominant view online is that Christians know more about Hebrew scripture than Jews do and google rules Wikipedia instead of the reality of plain words in their original context. 72.74.110.248 18:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- The titles are meant to be informative. "Christian view of Hebrew Scripture" would imply a discussion of exactly that. This instead describes the Christian view on supposed messianic prophecies. The OT is claimed as authoratative in Christianity, thus there is no bias in the title. Now if an article was to be made on Christian intepretation of Abrahman then it should be titles as "Christian perspective on Abraham" the same would be true for the Jewish intepretation(presumably including Jewish traditions). As such the title "Jewish perspective on Abraham". 74.137.230.39 21:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Proposal to split into two articles: A list of "prophecies" and an article about the prophecies
This article seems to be overly focused on examples of Messianic prophecy in Christianity to the exclusion of analysis of the topic itself (which seems to be relegated to the end of the article). I propose we split this article into two: one with a list of the "prophecies" and one that focuses on the role Messianic prophecy plays in Christianity and the various viewpoints on the accuracy of the Christian view of Messianic prophecy. Any thoughts, support, or opposition? johnpseudo 20:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with what you're saying and I think we should implement that plan-however I think we may have trouble with the uncertainty as to what a legitimate "prophecy" is, and the list might be a breeding ground for OR and POV. We just need to be careful. AdamBiswanger1 21:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, we might have a problem finding any kind of "authoritative" source on what "Christians" claim to be a Messianic prophecy, but I suppose it's best to be as inclusive as possible and denote fringe opinions as being fringe. There are plenty of sources for Christian claims of Messianic prophecy, though- even just on the Internet. johnpseudo 21:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm... I just read the deletion nomination more thoroughly and am having second thoughts. Perhaps the non-list content of this article can be fleshed out a bit more before splitting. johnpseudo 23:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
delete per below this whole article merely lists verses without even listing the criticism of biblical scholars on each verse until this is done this is pov even tektonics.org admits the Hebrew Scriptures didn't predict Jesus but that the gospel authors took verses out of context don't believe me here is a good example
Matthew 2:15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
see http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=son+out+of+egypt&x=0&y=0
"Is OT prophecy fulfillment is a good apologetic? It actually isn't useful in the way it was at first. We need to understand (as do Skeptics) Jewish exegesis of the first century. It is not so much that the OT predicted the NT events as that the NT writers looked at history and sought OT passages that echoed what they had seen. This does not mean that there is not actual predictive prophecy at all (for even then God may have orchestrated the pattern) but rather that we cannot present an apologetic on this basis as we normally have; or else we are forced into a corner of explaining ie, why the NT allegedly uses OT passages "out of context"." source http://www.tektonics.org/af/christianmyths.html --Java7837 19:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason it is bias this article should not exist it should be deleted--Java7837 03:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Do not split otherwise it is hard for there to be rebuttals and the skeptic's view page will merely reproduce the list of prophecies page--Java7837 01:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Addition of Prophecies not fulfilled
While the article with just the "Claimed Prophecies" was definitely POV, it is still POV with the addition of the "Non-fulfilled" prophecies. Just because an article has two unchallenged rants on different sides of the issue does not make an article NPOV. All of the non-fulfilled prophecies can be explained to be explained to have been fulfilled as can all of the fulfilled be explain not to have been fulfilled. The "Christian" prophecies should have Jewish rebuttals under them and the "Jewish" ones should have Christians rebuttals. Currently it looks like the "Non-fulfilled" prophecies should be on the Rejection of Jesus or Criticism of Jesus page or even have there own page as long as it is POV with Christian rebuttals should have Jewish rebuttals. ChrisLamb 19:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
- Not even the New Testament claims that Jesus endorsed most (or any?) of these "prophecies", so this neither fits as Criticism of Jesus or Rejection of Jesus. Psysoph 06:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] External links
I've checked the recently added external link for "All about Jesus - Bible studies" and it doesn't seem to include studies that are specifically relevant to the article. Have the others been checked? - Fayenatic london (talk) 08:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Article quality
This is really very low-quality stuff - take for example the piece on the prophecy from Micah: it says:
While near the end of Micah's prophecy on the Babylonian captivity, Christian scholars have interpreted the text as a messianic prophecy that Christ would be born in Bethlehem.
"But you, O Bethlehem Ephrata, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days."
Bethlehem-Ephrata is the tiny city and clan from which comes the ancient Davidic dynasty with its messianic King. Hence the debate recorded in the book of John: “Others said, ‘This is the Christ.’ But some said, ‘Is the Christ to come from Galilee? Has not the scripture said that the Christ is descended from David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?’ So there was a division among the people over Jesus” (John 7: 41-43).
Yet the mother of Jesus gave birth to him in Bethlehem, as recorded at Luke 2: 1-7. That is why the Church of the Nativity is in Bethlehem; it was built on the site where Jesus was born.
"Assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, king Herod inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. They told him, ‘In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it is written by the prophet: And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel’" (Matthew 2: 4-6).
Really? Are you quite sure that "Bethlehem Ephrata" means the village of Bethlehem? Just what does the word "Ephrata" mean? For that matter, what does "Bethlehem" mean? "The tiny city and clan etc" eh? And the Mother of Jesus gave birth to him in Bethlehem did she? Are you quite sure of that? Any alternative opinions you're aware of about the origin of Luke 2:1-7? And Herod assembled the chief priests did he? How do you know this? Matthew 2 says so? Oh really!
Seriously, this article has to be upgraded beyond Sunday School standard.
PiCo 16:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it needs work. The debates on its continued existence acknowledged that. Please do contribute. I'm hoping to do so, but it deserves a big chunk of time.
- This article is too long to go into detailed studies of individual words; please set up separate articles for detailed studies on individual notable passages, like the one on Isaiah 53.
- You don't seem to accept Luke 2 and Matthew 2 as reliable sources, but at least the article states that those are the sources it is using for certain statements. By all means add references to other views, preferably concisely with links to longer articles elsewhere. - Fayenatic (talk) 18:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
13 September 2007
I agree with the above poster; this article has so many problems, where does one begin? As a Christian, I particularly object to the fact that Zechariah 13:6 is listed as a Messianic prophecy. Only Christians who are completely unfamiliar with Biblical Hebrew understand this to be Messianic. The actual Hebrew words used there are: וְאָמַר אֵלָיו, מָה הַמַּכּוֹת הָאֵלֶּה בֵּין יָדֶיךָ; וְאָמַר, אֲשֶׁר הֻכֵּיתִי בֵּית מְאַהֲבָי
The Hebrew word בֵּין יָדֶיךָ means "between," it does not mean "in." Therefore, the King James Version of the Bible is incorrect. Most other translations get it right. Contextually, Zech. 13:6 refers to someone who has been beaten on the BACK (the area that's "between the hands") because he's a FALSE PROPHET, which, as a Christian, I would never agree is truthful about Jesus. 207.239.111.117 17:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- You're clearly right, so I have deleted that section. That's a quick win. Fayenatic (talk) 17:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Don't Delete!!!
While this article does have a lot of flaws it just helped me a lot with a paper I had to write. Articles like these (no matter how controversial) are good! Perhaps to keep wikipedia controversial-free there could be a separate page explaining "the other side". But whatever you say these things are truly in the Christian's bible and Christians DO believe it. As long as this article contains facts about someone's beliefs it should be kept up for the greater knowledge of all.Meheren (talk) 02:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] We Need Similar Page Re: Israel
Many important prophecies in the Bible also relate to Israel and its future, some of which has come to pass. I'm not qualified to write such a page, but I really appreciate this one, as it adds to my knowledge various points of view of these things.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronchall (talk • contribs) 05:07, 5 March 2008
[edit] Claimed? Neutrality?
Are you kidding me? Why was this ever moved to include "claimed" in the title? When it was title "Messianic Prophecy in Christianity" that already demonstrates the "claimed" nature since the whole world is not Christian. Furthermore, why is there a neutrality question? Are we making mountains out of mole hills or what here? This should be moved back to the former title and the neutrality dispute deleted. It goes without saying that something titled, "...in Christianity" is already a claim by those that follow such. Ugh, I guess I'm making it a mountain too, but we are far too PC today, walking on eggshells just because there are differences in beliefs and opinions. Get over it! T geier (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
- I started Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Claimed Messianic prophecies of Jesus to ensure that the article was kept, as another editor kept PRODding it. The discussion may or may not answer your question... As a Christian, I don't mind the title. The objective is to achieve an objective article, fully referenced, setting out both Christian and Jewish POV on the most relevant scriptures. It still needs work, I know... - Fayenatic (talk) 17:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Wisdom of Solomon
I've included this passage but with a note that Jews and Protestants don't consider it Scripture, but most Christians do and it was written by a Jewish author, and thus to exclude it is to give the page a Protestant bias when it is far more explicit than most of the other examples. Maybe not got it completely NPOV but it's use by Matthew is well documented. 82.36.120.66 (talk) 10:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Bible References
Before any more work is done reflecting a Jewish approach to the article, references to the scriptural citations need to be used. For example, are the references made to the KJV? If so, its outdated, the discussion should reach some concensus as to which Christian? translation they are going to use, and to please cite it clearly.
The Jewish position is a natural adoption of the actual Hebrew text as the ultimate source, together with the way classical commentators have understood these verses.Dannyza1981 (talk) 22:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Call for placing this article in wikisource
Honestly, though, I think the article is more a wikisource article, than a wikipedia article. Think about it. Would you expect to find this article in a regular DVD, or in an information portal? I think this is a good way of determining whether these articles are necessary. The Wikipedia forum is not a place for Christian-Jewish Missionary dialog. It need not even present every single prophecy. This is my take - this article needs to be put in a wikisource or portal, rather than an article on an encyclopedia. Dannyza1981 (talk) 22:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] In the Christian Bible
I have my doubts about this article. Christian contributors to this article should be very aware of the fact that what they read is with a NT Bias. And hence the neutrality of the article is heavily Questionable. For example: consider prophecies for Muhammed found in the NT. With the Quran as a starting point, you can probably find just as much information and hints to Muhammed in the NT, as you can Jesus in the Christian OT, by using the NT, and mistranslating?! passages. I'm questioning here the bias of the writers here. Before you think about providing a source here, what are you trying to convey? That Christians read the bible in this way? The Article should really be on Christian Messianism and how it views Biblical Prophecy. Dannyza1981 (talk) 22:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with the last sentence. I'm not so sure about the rest. Peter Deer (talk) 11:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
