Talk:Chthonic
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[edit] Corinthian or Chthonic?
As for the title of the first section, I think it's rather puzzling to have a "Corinthian" alongside the "Olympian". Could it be "Chthonic" instead? --193.252.199.51 11:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Olympian Demeter
Wiki:Even more confusingly, Demeter was worshipped alongside of Persephone with identical rites, and yet was occasionally classified as an "Olympian" in poetry and myth.
Occasionaly? Demeter is one of the 12 olympian gods.
[edit] Aphrodite?
I was just reading a hymn from the greek magical papyri to Kytheria (Cyprus-born = Aphrodite) and she is address thus:
"O foam-born Kythereia, mother of Both gods and men, etherial and chthonic"
is this unusual? or should she be included in this article as well?--Feralnostalgia 11:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Major revision needed, IMO
The word "chthonic" isn't used just in reference to meek gods. It is used to describe a classification of myths, figures, deities and motifs across multiple cultures and times. Osiris and Demeter are both chthonic deities. Osiris is Egyptian. I'm not sure if Aphrodite is considered to be a chthonic deity. She's got the love thing going for her. But Chthonic aren't just known for their associations with life/fertility, they are also recognized for a concommittant association with death, the two together represent the process of rebirth. Demeter, when searching for her daughter Persephone (another chthonic figure), is known as Demeter Erinys. Erinys is associated with the Furies. Demeter was willing to allow the world to die of winter/starvation. This narrative is an explanation of the seasons: fertility and famine/death and the world's rebirth mirroring that of the spiritual rebirth of the individual, central chthonic motifs. I removed the part of the line under "Chthonic and Olympian" that stated, "Chthonic deities tended to prefer black victims over white ones..." This strikes me as biased (be it religious, cultural, or otherwise), specious and inflammatory. Since it had no ref., I felt it was best to remove it. Any suggestions for further improvement? Phyesalis 12:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Your comments on the quoted line "Chthonic deities tended to prefer black victims over white ones..." are fully incorrect and indicate a bias on your part. As we are talking about animals here, and not people, there is nothing biased or inflammatory here. Furthermore, this reflects legitimate scholarship (which the original author of the lines no doubt should have cited). I present you with two lines from Homer (Iliad, III.103-104): "οίσετε δ' άρν', έτερον λευκόν ετέρην δέ μέλαιναν,/ Γηι τε καί Ηελίωι", which translates to "Bring forth two rams (άρν' being in the dual), one white [male] (masculine endings) and one black [female] (feminine endings) for Gaia and for Helios (chiasmic structure common in Homer and most of Greek)". As Allen Benner says in his notes to the text, "The 'white ram' is an offering to the sun; the 'black ewe' to the earth, black being the appropriate color of victims offered to the chthonian deities". This sentiment is echoed in M.M. Willcock's commentary on the same lines, "Male animals were sacrificed to gods, females to goddesses; white to the Olympians, black to the gods of the underworld". The line should be re-added with adequate references to notes such as these. 204.52.215.69 17:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Pronunciation
The information in Greek Alphabet, Ancient Greek phonology and Modern Greek phonology don't seem to indicate that the initial letter would be pronounced with an 'h' sound as the article states. The Storm Surfer 09:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- A 'h' sound (/h/) is the closest approximation in English phonology to the /x/ - /ç/ sound of modern Greek and later Ancient Greek. I'll edit it to add the IPA transcription. Xander 00:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
-
- Where does the k come from in the pronunciation? You have çθonikos where you should have çθonios, no? Also, my IPA is rusty, but that should be a long i (ee), whereas with the k after it it would be short. Also, you say "modern Greek and later Ancient Greek", but in classical (say, Attic) Greek wouldn't the chi be pronounced kh? I suspect the Attic pronunciation might be closer to /kʰətʰoniɔs/, but I'm no expert. --DavidConrad 00:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Chthulhu
There's a mention of the deep Old One, and the mention of sacrificial cults bring me to the opinion that the words share etymology. Vampromero 23:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- Considering that the Lovecraftian pantheon, though nonetheless awesome, was only a creation of the last century, I think "shared etymology" is a little too glamorous for it. I'd say it's extremely likely that Lovecraft drew from the word "chthonic" in naming the iconic dragonsquid, though I doubt there's likely to be any explicit evidence for this connection. Since we're talking about ancient arbitrary language compared to recent deliberate fiction, there isn't a valid basis for drawing a linguistic conclusion. Unless I'm wrong and there is explicit evidence somewhere that Lovecraft used the word, the best we can say is "the name of Cthulhu was likely inspired by the word 'chthonic'," and even then it's kind of OR or speculation. Tsunomaru (talk) 03:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Chthonic Rites
Are there sources for any of the information concerning the rites of Chthonic cults? It's interesting stuff, but where's the support for any of it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.192.68.117 (talk) 18:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bomos
the greek word for "raised alter" was bomos? thats eerily simaliar to Heb. "boma" which means "personal altar" (not temple or tabernacle alters) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.239.114.45 (talk) 20:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
