Talk:Cheating in poker

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Just wanted to point out that most of this is guff. Most, if not all professional/targetted/plannned cheating nowadays, involves collusion and/or controlling just a couple of cards (neocheating). It definetly does not involve stacking an entire deck.

Contents 1 Marked cards 2 Prevention 3 Move of some parts to card game 4 Cheating is common? 5 Separate Bots From Collusion 5.1 Using Bots 6 Check it down 7 Absolute Poker Cheating Scandal

[edit] Marked cards

I'd prefer to avoid a revert conflict over the marked card thing: To learn about marked cards used to cheat at poker or other card games just search for "marked playing cards" xhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marked_playing_cards. I agree that the section on marked cards should have a link to the article on marked cards: I added a wikilink to marked playing cards. However, the bold-face single sentence paragraph with an external-style link to the article doesn't fit with the wiki style. I think the edit I made was adequate. Let me know if I can give any clarification.--Toms2866 19:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I merged the new content with the old card marking article where it should have been placed in the first place. 2005 20:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prevention

Any ways to prevent cheating? Some ways I can think of are, white borders on the backing to prevent bottom dealing, a plain colored back without much fancy design to counter card marking, and plastic so that stains don't occur. 70.111.224.85 15:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Bear in mind that once plastic cards are marked they wil stay in play for a very long time. Casinos use paper decks and change them every few hours to make marked cards less effective. Even the casinos which use plastic cards in poker rooms will frequently change decks for the same reason. Therefore, it is advised that paper cards be used in private games and that you start a new deck every evening.

[edit] Move of some parts to card game

Hi guys,

shouldn't the section about the different type of cheats be moved to card game? Doesn't seem something poker-specific to me. --Gennaro Prota 01:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cheating is common?

The second sentence seems like pure speculation: "Since poker has a wide variety of rules and procedures, hands are played fairly quickly, and numerous people are involved in games, the occurrence of cheating is common." How common? Common compared to what? Common where - casinos, home games, internet gambling? How is the frequency of cheating measured? In short, does this claim have any basis in fact at all? Does it belong in Wikipedia? Nasch 16:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think there's any basis for this claim, and I don't think it belongs here. In my personal experience, mild forms of collusion such as soft-playing friends are indeed common (and tacitly approved of), but more serious cheating is quite rare in modern casinos. --LDC 06:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separate Bots From Collusion

Using bots should be separated from collusion, as it is not necessarily an act of two or more players. Here is some proposed verbiage: --69.229.45.73 17:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Using Bots

Bots are computer programs designed give a player a significant advantage over other players, and are generally forbidden by online poker sites. Bots may play the game entirely without input from a player, or they may assist a player in making decisions. For example, an autofolding program would fold undesirable hands, and alert a user when a playable hand is dealt.

Please have a look at these definitions, thoughts and discussions w.r.t. cheating and pokerbots. My main objection is that pokerbots should not be considered cheating (and this discussion is also valid for the Computer Poker Players page):

• http://pokerai.org/wiki/index.php/Cheating
• http://pokerai.org/pf3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49 —Preceding unsigned comment added by IndianaV8 (talk • contribs) 11:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Bots are cheating by definition if they are prohibited, and they are at online cardrooms so there isn't much to discuss there. We aren't here to debate whether they should be illegal or not. 2005 07:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Bots are not prohibited everywhere and there are many ways to break end user license agreement of a casino. For example, some casinos clearly state in their license agreement that you cannot play on their online poker room in a proffesional manner. This implies that playing in a casino to earn money, in a proffesional manner, is also cheating. If we accept pokerbots as cheating, we should specify that playing poker proffesionaly is also cheating. Please also note excerpt from a reference that is already existing on the Cheating in Poker page [1]: "Personally, I have no moral objection to any player creating a bot to play and using his bot in the public online poker rooms. I admire such players for their ingenuity. Unskilled players have to learn to play poker, and whether they are schooled in the fundamentals by a bot or a human who plays like a bot makes very little difference. The lessons cost the same." IndianaV8

That's an external link, not a reference, and your quoting a non-relevant bit of opinion. Snyder's article actually says: "There are two types of 'cheating' that online poker players most worry about. One is play by 'bots,'..." Bots are cheating everywhere, but there may be some small cardroom that doesn't say that explicitly so I changed the text to reflect that. Obviously though, the main cardrooms state they are against their rules and cheating so they are. 2005 22:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

My last response address issues on the discussed article, and does not refer to the external pages. I have modified the page as according to how you derive what is cheating, all players that play professionally on absolute poker (for example) are cheaters too, as they violate their license agreement [2], namely that the company can close your account if "If you have not played at AbsolutePoker on an individual basis for personal entertainment only (that is, you have played in a professional sense or in concert with other player(s) as part of a club, group, etc.);" IndianaV8 —Preceding unsigned comment added by IndianaV8 (talk • contribs) 23:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

And I have clarified that this is not the norm, for example, not prohibited by the three largest rooms. 2005 00:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I will leave this like that for now, until I conduct some further research. But I honestly don't think it's reasonable to put in one paragraph, even in one page criminal activities (like collusion, which is most often used for money laundering or chip dumping, or multiple accounts that is done with conterfeiting documents) and in the best case give you also unfair advantage from game theory standpoint, NEXT to intellectual activities, like developing and running pokerbots, that give you no any advantage from game theory standpoint.

The next point that I will bring in the discussion is how many players are cheating, based on your definition, by violating the EULA by making "damaging comments with regard to the Company's operation in any media or forum".

[edit] Check it down

In a poker tournament, when one player is all in and two other players are active in the pot, it is common for the two players with chips left to "check it down". Unless they explicitly communicate an agreement about checking it down, this is not collusion.

What does "check it down" mean? I left my crib sheet in my other shoe. MaxEnt 01:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Absolute Poker Cheating Scandal

What happened to the info on the Absolute Poker cheating scandal. There are many sources:

• http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21381022/
• http://digg.com/offbeat_news/Absolute_Poker_Cheating_Scandal_Blown_Wide_Open
• http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/18/absolute_poker_cheating_allegations/
• http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=3752500&page=1
• http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12478109&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

but nothing at all here.Myth America 16:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)