Talk:Chancellor of Germany

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Contents 1 Imperial Chancellor 2 Pünder 3 How to count chancellors? 4 Question 5 ‘Chancellor’ in Germany is ……………(Prime Minister or President or Both) 6 Madam Chancelloress? 7 Edit war? 8 Chancellors of West Germany 9 was ist "werter"? 10 Image of the current chancellor 11 Unfree image

[edit] Imperial Chancellor

The English term Imperial Chancellor is ambigious because it could be The Empire's Chancellor (Reichskanzler) and The Emporer's Chancellor (Kaiserlicher Kanzler) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.177.41.37 (talk) 14:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pünder

It is good to notice that you record Goebbels and Von Krosigk as successors to Hitler. However I have found one other person who occupied a position as head of government in Germany prior to the founding of the Federal Republic: Hermann Pünder(CDU)Overall Director of the Administrative Council for Bizonia (U.S. and British Zones) 2 March 1948 - 20 September 1949

Noel Ellis, Wellington NZ 28 March 2004

Hermann Pünder never was Chancellor of Germany. He was the head of a provisional government. He maybe should be included in the list, but not as chancellor. --Lothar 84.155.91.165 20:24, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

This was a purely administrative post, so he shouldn't be included at all. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How to count chancellors?

Please have a look at Talk:Helmut Kohl, where User:Hajduk and me are discussing if one should count all chancellors or starts with the federal republic anew? -- till we ☼☽ | Talk 08:32, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Usually, german Chancellors are not numbered. There is no sense in counting them. If done so, than one should differ between the different forms of government. The Chancellor of the Federal Republic after 1949 has not much in common with the Chancellors of the Reich before 1945 (except for one part of their job title, but that also counts for the german arch-chancellors before 1806). Try this solution: Don't count them. --mmg 14:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Again: why to count german Chancellors? In Wikipedia british PMs are not counted, french presidents and PMs are not counted, italian Presidents and PMs are not counted. Why should german Chancellors be counted in this article? Usually nobody counts or numbers them in normal speech. --mmg 11:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I would count them for the same reason anything else is counted: to represent a directional sequence of discrete items. Furthermore, there are a number of other benefits in counting. Germany (FRG) has had eight chancellors in its roughly 57 years of history resulting in a rather long actual term of office (about 7 years). Comparative analysis is made easier here when I look at the number of british PMs in the same period which might say something about political stability in either country. I think there are benefits to counting and I can't see any disadvantages involved so the real reason is why not do it. BTW, I would say the same thing about British PMs, Italian Presidents, or other heads of state/government, taking into account the regional attitutes toward counting as applicable. sebmol 23:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, you can count anything, but is it necessary to do so within the article? --mmg 20:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe so, for the arguments listed above. And the lack of reasons not to number them. sebmol 04:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, the lack of reasons not to do something is no cause to do something (and there are arguments against counting, e.g. were to start; or whom to count as equal). AFAICS your arguments against counting were:

• to represent a directional sequence of discrete items (good argument? The chancellors are chronological ordered anyway.)
• Comparative analysis (Just by numbers?)

What do other users think? Can we find an agreement on counting or not? When the chancellors are not counted (which I would prefer), there are no problems on how to count them.--mmg 11:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

If you really want to count, than count Reichskanzler and Bundeskanzler seperatly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.212.87 (talk) 16:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Does teh Germany chancellor do "chancellor's questions" like the British PM has question time? Answer: Nein.-- Benson.by]] from de:wikipedia

I think we need a rewording at "this procedure was abused by parties of both political extremes in order to oppose chancellors and undermine the democratic process." This use of "abused" seems dubious editoralising with some agenda. Using language that suggests small or extreme parties opposing chancellors brings down "democracy" seems an unacceptably loaded statement of fact. Think we need a change to something more NPOV.Alci12

[edit] ‘Chancellor’ in Germany is ……………(Prime Minister or President or Both)

Prime Minister in Britain, Germany has a President with limited Powers who is also Head of State Nevfennas 15:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Madam Chancelloress?

If Angela Merkal is elected what will her title be? What is the female form of Bundeskanzler? (Alphaboi867 07:00, 27 August 2005 (UTC))

Bundeskanzlerin? john k 14:34, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I would imagine that she would be addressed as Madam Chancellor in English. sebmol 18:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

It is "Bundeskanzler" for males, "Bundeskanzlerin" for females. The correct style is "Herr Bundeskanzler" and for women "Frau Bundeskanzlerin". However what the form in English would be I'm not sure. For men it it is probably just "Chancellor" or "Your Excellency". For women I think it is probably "Madame Chancellor" altough does a "Chancelloress" exist, or a "Madame Chancelloress"? Gryffindor 15:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

The awful habit of recent years to add an "-in" to otherwise neutral words to make them female has thankfully not made it to the English language. The correct way to address Dr. Merkel in English is "(Her Excellency) Madame Chancellor".

sebmol 16:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Why awful? Bundeskanzler is not of Latin orign like minister or professor and so not a neutral term. The German language since long ago has the opportunity to build a female form. And the English language has it too - all noble tiltes have a female form see duke and duchess (She is not Madam Duke). Consequently the form Chanceloress is not incorecct even less used. A Germanic linguist. (The Queen is the Queen and not Madam King!!!!!!!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.177.41.37 (talk) 13:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war?

There seems to be an edit war going on. Incidentally, I tend to agree with the changes made by Riveraz which restart numbering of chancellors from 1949 on (like it is done in the German article and in common German usage). Likewise, translating "Reichskanzler" as "federal chancellor" is inappropriate and the term "imperial chancellor" is more accurate. The title of "Reichskanzler" didn't change from before 1918 (when Germany was run by an emperor) to afterwards (commonly known as the "Weimar Republic"). Therefore, it's not appropriate to change the English translation of the title either. sebmol 01:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Riveraz is hard-banned vandal User:Wik and his edits should thus automatically be reverted. The previous sockpuppet he used to vandalize this article was User:Varizer, which was blocked indefinitely recently. He has also used similar names User:Rivarez (Category:Wikipedia:Suspected_sockpuppets_of_Wik)

It is completely inappropriate to translate Reichskanzler as "imperial" Chancellor. The title has nothing with the Emperor to do, it only indicating federal (as opposed to state) level. Exact translations of "Reich" and "Bund" are non-existant in English, but "federal" is the most appropriate word in this context. Reichskanzler is not meaning federal Chancellor any less than Bundeskanzler.

As for the numbering, we cannot have two Chancellors in the same list with the same number. The whole point with the numbers is to provide a quick overview of the place of the Chancellor in the list of Chancellors. The count doesn't start anew with the new constitution of 1919 and after it was suspended.

German usage is irrelevant as this is not the German Wikipedia. In German they use different titles. In English we do not. The title of the Chancellor in English has been the same since 1871.

A few points: 1) Reichskanzler is never translated into English as "Federal Chancellor," and prior to 1918 it is certainly translated as "Imperial Chancellor." 2) A good edit is a good edit, no matter if the user is hard banned or not. If Riveraz is, in fact, Wik (I have no idea), he ought to be blocked and prevented from editing. But it is complete madness to revert perfectly good edits simply because they were done by a banned editor. If one disagrees with the edits on other grounds, that, of course, is a different matter. 3) I see no reason to number the chancellors. The issue is awkward, and numbering the West German chancellors as continuing on from the German Reich has POV problems, since it implies that the BRD, and not the DDR, was the legitimate successor state to the German Reich, which would be wikipedia making an essentially political judgment. john k 05:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

That's basically my point. When discussing a subject matter in a foreign language (like discussing German politics in English), usage patterns, especially as they relate to official titles, do matter. Those who visit this page to learn more about the German chancellor most likely do so in the context of a general interest in the office and its place in German politics. If the German word "Reich" doesn't have a good equivalent in English (which I believe is the case because "federal" sounds too free and "empire" too authoritarian, maybe a translation isn't appropriate.

While legal scholars tend to agree that there's been one German country since 1871, they also recognize that it has undergone numerous political and territorial changes due to the two world wars and their aftermaths. The Reichskanzler during the time of the German empire was in a very different position than the one after that. So, even if German titles didn't change, the substance matters a whole lot. Assuming equivalence between the imperial Reichskanzler and the republican Reichskanzler is like equating the President of the United States under the current constitution and under the Articles of Confederation. sebmol 06:14, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chancellors of West Germany

Is this a joke? I edited the Helmut Schmidt article to label him as Chancellor of West Germany, but then I noticed this article and the apparent concensus on Wikipedia to refer to the post-WWII (through reunification) chancellors as "Chancellor of Germany." Is this some kind of wishful thinking on the part of some, I don't know, Germanophile equivalent to the Cuban community in Miami? It's not a matter of opinion; it's just plain inaccurate. If you were to ask Helmut Schmidt, for example, he would tell you he was not Chancellor of Germany.

I notice in the discussion above that the chancellors are "numbered" in an uninterrupted sequence, West German chancellors included, because it's "easier," and most readers only have "a general interest in the office" anyway. What? I'm inclined to slap an NPOV tag on the article, but will wait. -- Muffuletta 14:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The official title is "Federal Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany", even before reunification. When the office was created by the Basic Law, the intent was always, that the two countries would come together as one again. As to the numbering, in the current version of the article, it restarts everytime a new constitution was adopted. Since the Basic Law has been in effect since 1949, the Chancellors are numbered from 1 (Adenauer) to 8 (Merkel). That's also the practice in Germany. sebmol 20:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

If you were to ask Helmut Schmidt, he would tell you he was Chancellor of Germany. There was only one legitimate and democratically elected German government, and, btw., only one Chancellor. In the English-speaking world, the term "German Chancellor" would during the cold war refer to the chief-of-government of the Federal Republic of Germany.

---

Chancellor of West Germany better reflects reality and avoids BrD POV. PMA 04:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The correct term was always "Federal Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany". Referring to the Federal Republic as West Germany is a little bit problematic in this article, because the reunification was technically an acession of the German Democratic Republic to the Federal Republic. Therefor todays Germany is the former West Germany. That's the main reason the Chancellors are numbered in succession since Adenauer, as the reunification had no effect on the office. One should of course mention that between 1949 - 1990 the State ruled by the German Chancellor (an acceptable term, as there was no East German Chancellor) was only West Germany and enlarged in 1990. Nevfennas 07:05, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Not to forget Saarland, which was reunified with Germany in 1957. Saarland clearly is the most western part of Germany.

It's not "more Western" than Northrhine-Westphalia (which contains the westernmost point in Germany) or Rhineland-Palatinate.--134.130.4.46 19:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] was ist "werter"?

When addressing former Chancellor Helmut Kohl, the current Chancellor Angela Merkel used the style "Werter Herr Bundeskanzler".

That would be interesting if the page ever said what that means (in English, seeing as this is the English Wikipedia). The best I can figure, it means "caretaker" or "guard". I would edit that in myself, if I knew what I was doing (with the language). -- Vystrix Nexoth 03:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

"Werter" as part of a salutation means "valued". Just an adjective to express appreciation (for his presence at the function, his work, or whatever).--134.130.4.46 16:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

It just means "dear". Dear Chancellor Helmut Kohl. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.255.30.238 (talk) 13:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

The standard adjective is wert, meaning valued, worthy, or dear. It is inflected depending on the position, gender, number, and case of the noun it is describing. Werter Herr Bundeskanzler or Werte Frau Bundeskanzler(in). samwaltz 18:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a difference between East and West Germans! Werter is mainly a style of adress of East Germans, as the current Chancelloress comes from Mecklenburg and has lived in the former GDR.

Further notice: It is common for reasons of courtesy to adress former bearers of a constitutional offices (state president, head of government, president of parliament) in case of oral adress with the former title. (In the written form there will be an annex added refering to the end of teniture like in German a. D. = out of service / out of duty) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.177.41.37 (talk) 13:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image of the current chancellor

Should we have an image of Angela Merkel at the top of the article, perhaps above the "Germany" box? -- Ddxc 13:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added one. -- Ddxc (talk) 00:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unfree image

I've nominated Image:German Chancellors1.png for deletion because of possible copyright infringement and no fair-use rationale. -- Ddxc (talk) 00:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC)