Talk:Cannoli
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Marcus2: you reverted TreyHarris' version because they don't always contain these ingredients. But his version doesn't say that. It says "often containing ricotta cheese, vanilla and chocolate or chocolate chips." Are there ingredients that are always used -ricotta, probably, vanilla, probably, chocolate, I don't remember that one. Why is the "often" phrasing objectionable? Rmhermen 19:02, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)
- I quickly checked 10 different recipes online: 9 contained ricotta, 9 contained chocolate, over half mentioned red wine or Marsala, and over half mentioned vanilla. This looks pretty good for a statement like "most", even more than just "often". Rmhermen 19:14, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)
Alright. I forgot to check what else TreyHarris did. I thought he reverted it altogether. Marcus2 10:37, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Although Cannolo in Italian literally translates as "tube", "Cannolu" in Sicilian, as per my Sicilian family is usually used to mean "Pipe". Upon further conversation with my grandmother I was told in the old country the reason why they are called Pipes is because they actually used to use pipes to make them. One wraps the dough around the pipe and fries the shell.
Also, Probably more important that chocolate chips to any real recipe for making Cannoli includes Pistachio along the edges. Although in America this is not as common I do not think I have scene an italian household do it any other way!
Also, I think I might post the traditional recipe up, and remember..the key to a good Cannolo shell is lemon zest!
Aren't they traditionally filled with marscapone? --NEMT 05:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- Cannolu in Sicilian can refer to either tubing, piping, or indeed anything that is cylindrical in shape, including a piece of cane or bamboo. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Deneban:
My June 9th 2006 edits of the cannoli article was one of my first Wiki editing experiences. The irresponsible edits made to what I placed in the cannoli article have given me a frustrating first experience with Wiki edits, and I am considering not doing any more because of it.
First, I had started a paragraph to differentiate the basic foundation ingredients of the original Sicilian recipe from the myriad of variations that were already present in the article. That got blown away. If the cannoli definition by ingredients isn't anchored somehow, we can start to call lots of things cannoli.
Secondly, I added what sugar is normally used to sweeten the ricotta (caster sugar). This was also blown away and simplified to "sweetened ricotta cheese". How it is sweetened was deleted. Thanks editor.
Third, I added "chopped candied fruit" as a basic ingredient in the Sicilian recipes. These are after all Sicilian fruit pastries. That got lumped in as just another variation by some editor. "Chefs" add chopped candied fruit? No, pastry makers do "PASTICCIERI". I am really surprised my rosewater edit has survived one day.
The sentence with "if the filling is inserted too soon before the cannoli are eaten" is utter nonsense. If you prepare the shells and cream with the proper ingredients and procedure, filled cannoli shells will stay crunchy for at least 3 days. High volume Italian pastry shops must fill them in advance because the counter help does not have the skill to fill them in a professional manner and they must keep the customer line moving. The reason the shell and filling are kept separate are: a) The shop has limited refrigerator space with room only for the cream rather than for completed trays of prepared cannoli, b) different shell styles are selected by the customer at purchase (e.g. chocolate dipped or coated) or c) the shop purchased shell and frozen cream separately and do not want to make more cannoli than will be sold so as not to waste stock.
On the other hand, I am grateful the whipped cream filling was edited out.
Marscapone cheese use is a variation, perhaps American, and is not the original Sicilian recipe. Therefore it should not appear before ricotta. If you type "cannoli marscapone" in "www.google.it" you get no Italian hits. Then type in "cannoli ricotta", you get uncountable Italian hits (no pun intended). I believe this marscapone thing comes from people who want to also make tiramisu with cannolis using the same cheese as a short cut. The article should really differentiate original ingredients from variations as I intended.
The new photo under "description" is not the cannoli at its best. Its at its worst in fact. The filler was also very cincy with the cream or the cream is half-melted/decomposed. The cream should be inserted using a star extruder to give it the cream visually interesting and decorative ridges on each end. Most preparers put confecionate sugar on the shell add more visual appeal. Everyone can make a better looking cannoli than that.
My feeling is this article was edited by people who do not know the authentic cuisine, are not exposed to authentic Italian pastry or shops, nor even native Sicilians, and have been exposed to many off-Sicily variants of the pastry.
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- Please see Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. The edits made in complete accordance with Wikipedia standards of source citation (which the original article lacked), global view (including both Italian and Italian-American aspects in this case), no original research, and neutral point of view.
- I wholeheartedly welcome you to the Wiki community, and urge you to study and understand the policies and guidelines, as well as perhaps tempering your emotions and refraining from using such bad-faith phrases "irresponsible edits". Actually, edits made contrary to such Wiki tenets as noted in the above paragraph are the irresponsible ones.
- Incidentally, not that it matters since my information comes from properly cited reference materials, but your comment that " this article was edited by people who do not know the authentic cuisine, are not exposed to authentic Italian pastry or shops, nor even native Sicilians, and have been exposed to many off-Sicily variants of the pastry" is incorrect. As well, its tone has no place in a civil, good-faith effort such as this. -- Tenebrae 18:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Turkish Hat?
I have never heard a cannoli called a "Turkish Hat" - and there are no Google hits for "Turkish Hat" that come up in reference to a cannoli. - AKeen 01:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- Per the cited Reference at http://www.cannoli-enterprises.com/history2.html: "The origins of cannoli, also called Turkish hats, can be traced back to the Saracens or even to pre-Christian times." -- Tenebrae 01:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- Is there any other citation than this? Is this a common name? - AKeen 01:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- I gave a citation from one of the biggest Italian bakery-equipment makers in the world, with an extensive historical section. Here's another citation: http://www.summerhockey.com/Academe/LECTURE.PDF. I got these off Google, as you say you have tried. -- Tenebrae 02:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- Cannoli-Enterprises seems to be a hobby website - not "one of the biggest Italian bakery-equipment makers in the world" as you say. And what kind of citation is a random PDF file on a website called summer hockey? --216.75.93.104 20:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
- The citation is from a summer hockey league page, not exactly an authoritative source. Moreover, search Google for "Turkish hats", and you'll get...literally hats from Turkey. In any case, this nickname is not common enogugh to be featured so prominently.-AKeen 13:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Is there any other citation than this? Is this a common name? - AKeen 01:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rewriting
How about rewriting this article in order to remove that huge trivia section? I'd say to write a "Cannoli in popular culture" paragraph to replace it. Thoughts? --Angelo (talk) 10:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
