Talk:Campus Crusade for Christ

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Christianity Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
Stub	This article has been rated as Stub-class on the quality scale.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

This is a talk page for discussion of the article about Campus Crusade for Christ. It is not for discussion about the organization itself, unless that discussion involves improving the article. In particular, it is not for discussion about whether or not Campus Crusade is a "good" or "bad" ministry; or advocating a particular view on theology or spirituality. Please see "Wikipedia is not a soapbox" and "Wikiquette" for information about the proper use of talk pages.

Before asking a question here concerning what can and cannot be posted in this article, please refer to the following Wikipedia rules: What Wikipedia Is Not (Policy) Neutral Point of View (Policy) No Original Research (Policy) Verifiability (Policy) Reliable Sources (Guideline) Disruption of Wikipedia to Prove a Point (Guideline)

The article Campus for Christ was nominated for deletion. The debate was closed on January 22 2008 with a consensus to merge the content into Campus Crusade for Christ. If the merger is not completed promptly, Campus for Christ might be re-nominated for deletion. To discuss the merger, please use this talk page.

Contents 1 Archive of Past Discussions 2 Current Discussion Topics 3 How Many Times Has the 4 Spiritual Laws Been Printed 4 Has the Jesus Film Been "Viewed" or "Screened" 5 Campus Ministry Does Not Equal CCC 6 Criticism 7 Sources? 8 Name Change? 9 About 3.5 million "I Found It" decisions and 5 billion Jesus Film viewers . . . 10 Why I reverted edits of User:Tregoweth 11 CCC to Orthodoxy?

[edit] Archive of Past Discussions

• Archive 1 (Creation to April 2006)
• Archive 2 (May 2006)
• Archive 3 (May-August 2006)

[edit] Current Discussion Topics

Use the space below to start or join a current discussion. If you want to start a new dialogue, be sure to check out the archives to see what has previously been discussed. Thanks for participating and helping to make wikipedia an excellent online resource. --Sixtrojans 16:41, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How Many Times Has the 4 Spiritual Laws Been Printed

An anonymous user recently changed the number of copies that the 4 Spiritual Laws has been printed from 2.5 billion to 1 billion. The anonymous user cited a number on 4laws.com, an old Web site that does not appear to be current. The 2.5 billion number was sourced to the organization's press kit which does appear to be kept current. Comparing the quality of the sources, I think the press kit is more reliable. --Sixtrojans (talk) 17:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Has the Jesus Film Been "Viewed" or "Screened"

An anonymous user recently changed the wording about the Jesus Film, changing "viewed 6 billion times" to "screened 6 billion times," citing a PBS article which uses the word "screened" rather than the Jesus Film Project's Web site which claims "6 billion viewings." I think the reporter on the PBS article didn't realize the words aren't interchangeable -- 6 billion screenings would translate into a viewership in the 10s of billions, I would think. I would use the more conservative "6 billion viewings" that the organziation reports. --Sixtrojans (talk) 17:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Campus Ministry Does Not Equal CCC

I searched campus ministry and was redirected here. Please take that link out. Most large campuses have a couple of dozen campus ministries. This is not representative of them. 07:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Campus Crusade calls its college ministry "the Campus Ministry" which is why someone probably put the redirect on "Campus Ministry." Formerly, that article was a stub that at least explained what was going on. I think what we need to do is some kind of disambiguation on the "Campus Ministry" page where we offer readers the option of coming to this article or going to Category:College_religious_organizations. If no one else gets to it, I'll work on it later if I have time. Good catch. --Sixtrojans 14:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Done. --Sixtrojans 16:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

I noticed the criticism section has been entirely removed. I agree that all of the content in it at the time of removal was poor and inadmissable. The question remains, should there be a place for noting any important or widely circulated criticisms regarding CCC? As an example the wikipedia page on Mothers against Drunk Driving regards another large organization, and criticisms of the organisation are noted. I think the proportion of the MADD article devoted to criticism may be overly high and unbalance the article, however I am using it only to argue that there is precedent for having a section on criticism.203.109.234.110 08:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, I agree - this is an organisation that rightly or wrongly has taken a lot of criticism, and simply pretending that it hasn't happened for the purposes of this page raises questions of whether NPOV is being adhered to. It's been gone for a long time though, and I'd not know where to start with re-adding it. Lankiveil 12:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Google News comes up with 71 articles in the past month, and almost 1,000 in the past year, when searching on the phrase "Campus Crusade for Christ." I would think that if there were "important and widley circulated criticisms" regarding CCC, it should be fairly easy to find some relable sources to cite, and add to the article. But it seems like the most "convtroversial" things that turn up are Op-Ed pieces from college newspapers complaining that students involved with CCC won't stop talking about Jesus in public. --Puddleglum411 (talk) 17:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The criticism of Campus Crusade is somewhat related to political conservatism topics of homosexuality, gender roles, and anti-communism (this last issue is for this group in particular). Their involvement in politics has changed over the years and the leadership of Campus Crusade currently mostly focuses on evangelicalism to bring about cultural change in reflection to Christian conservative values; however, there is friction among leaders of how much to get involved in politics. Campus Crusade as well as other evangelical organizations have been a voting base for Republicans from around the late 60s to 2004 and maybe will be for some time. Other main criticism is the de-intellectualism on college campuses whereas intellectual pursuits are not the main center of college life. However, this later criticism has also been brought about by the increase growth in population and class size of many college campuses to the point where students are the less focus of instructors and students meet less with instructors. On a religious point, there is also criticism about Campus Crusade's emphasis that if an individual does not accept Jesus as God or a savior; then they are damned. However, critics of such a theology who are also Christians might say that Jesus is the one who saves, not the individual. There are many books on topics of evangelicalism. On another note, if i look at this article like many other articles on wikipedia, they are not very detail and provide much more of a brief summary, and that rather hurts my aspiration and probably other people's aspirations to further write on this site. I think for much detail topics one might have to read dissertations or detail books on single such topics. Sp0 (talk) 03:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions with us. In order for your criticisms to be added to the article though, each one will need to be cited from a reputable source.--Sixtrojans (talk) 13:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

Is it possible for someone to flag this article for not properly sourcing statistics? It's ridiculous to say that "more than 3.5 million people become Christians." as a result of a bumper sticker campaign without any form of proof... other than faith. All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

Thank you for attempting to help make Wikipedia entries better. Please remember to sign your posts on the talk page. Before making extensive changes to a stable article, you should first open a discussion on the talk page. All of the statistics in the timeline is sourced to Campus Crusade's press kit, which is frequently used by journalists as a source in articles. To date, there are no known articles published by the press disputing the accuracy of any of these statistics. If you do a little more research on the "I Found It!" campaign, you'd know it was more than just a bumper sticker campaign. It was a nationwide, grassroots program in the 1970s involving churches and lay volunteers across the country interacting with their neighbors. With that background information, I think you ought to give the reported statistics another chance, rather than greeting them with cynicism and a decidedly not neutral point of view. --Sixtrojans 23:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

While I appreciate your contributions as well, the statistics presented on this page are not cited properly, and as such, should not be included in a (supposedly) academically-oriented article. This would allow those who read the article to base their opinions on the credibility of the source, rather than on the figures themselves. Published or not, most of the figures (conversions especially) are generally unverifiable. If nothing else, take a break.. let someone else edit this page once or twice without reverting it immediately and throwing around accusations of cynicism and the like... the next thing you know, someone will shout "Witch" and we'll all be coverd in the stench of burning human flesh... --ONETWOTHREEFOURFIVE

The proper way to handle disputes is to talk them out on the discussion page with other editors and try to come to a consensus. As far as your comments about cynicism go, how else would you describe your comment "all hail the spaghetti monster"? I think my remark was fair. --Sixtrojans 02:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this user - if you're going to say that 5 billion people have seen the film (that's 5 out of 6 people in the whole world), you need to back it up. If you cannot cite a source for your statistics, then I'm afraid that they don't belong here. Lankiveil 00:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC).

The statistics do not say 5 billion people have seen the film. The statistics say the viewership (times viewed, including repeat views) is over 5 billion. The number has been published by the New York Times, which is certainly a credible source. (The New York Times, July 22, 2003 Page 1AR, "1979 Bible Film is the Most-Watched Movie of All Time" by Franklin Foer; Also, see: http://jesusfilm.org/progress/statistics.html which now has viewership at over 6 billion.) --Sixtrojans 02:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

(removed this section after looking more closely at the article. Does seem to be cited adequately, although a source I can actually look at would be preferable).

Also, I'm concerned that the "3.5 million conversions" statistic is not verifiable. Does this mean that 3.5 million converted just because of the sticker, or was it a factor, or what? It seems a very vague assertion to me. Lankiveil 03:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC).

Verifiability in Wikipedia refers to the ability to quote reliable, expert sources outside of the encyclopedia. It does not refer to an editor's ability to conduct a scientific experiment to prove a statement. In fact, that would be original research and is explicitly against Wikipedia policy. The burden of proving something happened or not lies with the subject matter experts quoted in these articles, not with the editors of the Wikipedia encyclopedia.

The Wikipedia article for the TV series [Lost (TV Series)|Lost] says, "Lost garnered an average of 15.5 million viewers per episode on ABC." Can anyone verify that number to the same standard you seem to be demanding here? Is there a hairy little man running from house-to-house every Wednesday night, counting how many people are actually watching Lost? The editors of the Lost article don't have to personally verify that number. The only burden they have is to find a published source outside of Wikipedia that would be an expert on the matter. That is precisely what has happened here.

The source for the "I Found It" statistic is Campus Crusade's press kit for reporters. Is the press kit correct? I have no idea. Hundreds of articles have been written about the organization by hundreds of journalists, including highly respected news outlets like CNN and the New York Times. If the number was falsified, shouldn't some snoopy reporter have exposed the truth by now?

Rather than deleting a sourced statement from a stable article simply because you don't like it, why don't you do some homework and find a reliable source that refutes the number first? --Sixtrojans 04:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The Lost article is probably referring to the Nielsen Ratings, an accepted and open way of calculating an approximate viewership figure by a third party. Your statistic is seemingly pulled from nowhere by the group in question, with no indication of where it came from and how it was calculated. I'd say that for this sort of figure, the Campus Crusade press kit is not a trustworthy source. Lankiveil 21:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC).

That's why the New York Times was referenced and the 5 billion viewership was used rather than the 6 billion figure from the JESUS Film Web site. As far as Nielsen Ratings go, my point was that there are many claims to "viewership" where the actual viewers are not counted one-by-one. Nielsen isn't exactly a neutral third party--they represent the advertising community. A great apples-to-apples comparison would be the Box Office numbers released by Hollywood studios each week. The $ amounts are spit out from the studio that owns the distribution rights to a film. It's worth mentioning that the JESUS Film has been shown on national television in dozens of countries around the world (plus distributed by video, including mass direct mail) which I'm sure constitute a solid base for that number. By the way, I just did a quick Google search and PBS has published a short article claiming 6 billion viewership. --Sixtrojans 22:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to the bumper sticker comment. As far as I'm concerned, the term "viewership" figure is vague, but I don't disagree with the assertion as you've put it (I'd like to see something that isn't copied verbatim from a press release, but we can't have everything). Lankiveil 23:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC).

Please, show us the "press kit for reporters", or do not cite the statistics. A proper citation would require the actual title, name of the author, editor, publisher, date of publication, etc... Why don't you do some homework on how to properly cite materials at the "MLA Formatting and Style Guide" before passing off numbers that more closely resemble hyperbole than factual statistics. Failing this, please cite a couple of articles by the "highly respected news outlets like CNN and the New York Times" which report these same figures. By the way, CBN is not like CNN just because there's only a difference of one letter separating the two.--User:Onetowthreefourfive

The link to the press room is in several places in the article. In case you are unable to find it, look here: http://www.demossnewspond.com/ccci/. You can set up a Google News Alert to get a daily digest e-mailed to you with links to every reference in the press to a keyword. Try setting one up for "Campus Crusade for Christ" and you'll probably see a couple of stories each day from around the world. I'm sure CBN has probably covered Campus Crusade sometime in the organization's 50+ year history, but I personally wouldn't use CBN as a source, especially when there are more legitimate media outlets providing coverage. Check out CNN's Anderson Cooper or Good Morning America which have both done interesting spots on Campus Crusade in the past year. (You can also find links to those in the main Campus Crusade article towards the bottom). --Sixtrojans 21:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name Change?

Did the organization change their name at all? Since last year all the campus groups on my campus called "Campus Crusade for Christ" were changed to "Campus for Christ". Is this a local thing, or through the whole organization? I was under the impresssion they all changed. --Chewy

I would think if there was an organization-wide name change you would see it on the corporate Web sites and in their pressroom. Both www.ccci.org and www.campuscrusadeforchrist.com continue to use the full name. --Sixtrojans 14:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

There has not been an organization-wide name change. Local campus chapters of Campus Crusade for Christ often use a shorter name that the staff members feel will be inviting to students. "Cru," shortened from Crusade is a common one. --Markww 17:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About 3.5 million "I Found It" decisions and 5 billion Jesus Film viewers . . .

Just one big thing about the "I've Found it" campaign . . I don't know if you've seen the video footage of this campaign, but 3.5 million is actually a fairly conservative claim. Certainly it would be a big number were the campaign confined to one country, but it wasn't. One of the countries in which "I've Found It!" was pushed hard was South Korea, and they held a number of meetings at which the attendence IN A SINGLE NIGHT was over a million (at the time, they were listed as the biggest public meetings anywhere, any time, but I believe they've since been surpassed by various events, I believe in Korea . . :) )

As for the number of people viewing the Jesus film, I agree it's a big number. That said, having been involved with CCCI and having seen it from the inside, I'd be inclined to trust it. Their statisticians are quite scrupulous (it's kinder than saying "Anal Retentive!" :)).Johno 09:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

For Wikipedia's sake, the key issues are what has been published by credible sources (whether we agree with what was published or not). It's best to stick with the conservative numbers in the current article that the organization has claims in its press kit AND that have been run by respectable media outlets (New York Times, CNN, ABC, etc.). Wikipedia editors need to stay away from conducting independent research. --Sixtrojans 15:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

No disagreement here. I'm just pointing out that the published figure is also a reasonable one.Johno 13:51, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why I reverted edits of User:Tregoweth

Campus Crusade for Christ is the largest Christian parachurch organization in the world and an extremely complex organization with over 40 unique ministries under its umbrella in just the U.S. alone. Removing links to the organization's ministry's makes it difficult for the reader to understand the scope of the organization. A lot of work has gone into presenting this article in a clear and coherent way. Before making unilateral decisions to make wholesale changes to this article, please use this page to discuss them. There are rooms for improvement, but let's not undermine the work that has already been done. --Sixtrojans 04:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:External links for the guidelines on adding external links. A more appropriate way to demonstrate the scope of the organization would be within the article itself; linking to numerous websites only demonstrates that the organization has numerous websites. Also, please be careful about using the description "vandalism," unless it refers to "any addition, deletion, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia"; while you may disagree with my edits, they were made in good faith. —tregoweth (talk) 04:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm familiar with the policy, thank you. However, you've missed the point... the external links that we whittled this down to (at one point there were hundreds) represent the major "business units" that fall under the Campus Crusade umbrella that may not be apparent otherwise to the reader. According to wikipedia policy, that makes them relevant to this article. To cut down on the clutter, we remove links to Web sites for individual university chapter Web sites (or there would be 100s just from the U.S.).--Sixtrojans 04:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the massive cluster of links is still too much. As Tregoweth says, the best way to demonstrate the size, scale, and complexity of the information is by talking about it in the article, not by throwing a whole bunch of links at the reader. Lankiveil 12:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] CCC to Orthodoxy?

I was just wondering, where is the mention of many CCC members becoming Eastern Orthodox Christians as a result of CCC? Within their research of Early Christianity, many (after their studies) went from being Protestant Christians to Eastern Orthodox. So I was wondering, where is the mention of this? --KCMODevin 22:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

If you can site a source for this information and it is relevant to the article, you could add it. Campus Crusade is such a large organziation though with a 50+ year history that it may not really be relevant today. Many former staff members have also become evangelical pastors, so you would need to be careful to present the information in a balanced way. --Sixtrojans 15:27, 12 November 2007 (UTC)