Talk:Calpernia Addams

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This article was nominated for deletion on feb 11, 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Contents 1 Crime 2 Cleanup 3 Birth name 4 I'd love to not be a part of Wikipedia 4.1 Birth Name & Transgender 5 Reference 1 6 Calpernia's wishes 7 pursuant to WP:NOR 8 'Transgendered' in intro 9 Strange...

[edit] Crime

I've deleted the sentence stating, "Despite the obviously bigoted basis for his murder, the military tribunal did [sic] convict Glover of a hate crime." I assume the author meant to say "did not convict Glover of a hate crime. In any case, the UCMJ does not have a provision for categorizing certain murders as a "hate crime" and others as not a hate crime. Whether you hate the person because they are gay, or are a Jew, etc, or simply hate them because they stole your parking spot three weeks ago, you still fall under the same article; in either case the victim has been wrongly murdered. Astarf 02:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

This article needs grammatical and syntactic editing. I agree with some talkers here that Calpernia Addams' birth name should not be part of this article because Calpernia Addams and many other women like her are often subject to harassment and ridicule. Inclusion of her birth name would likely cause it to be used a weapon to ridicule and disrespect her, and her often publicly stated wish that it never be revealed. Calpernia Addams in particular has been the victim or her boyfriend's murder, and has been subjected to unwanted public scrutiny because of that tragedy. Calpernia Addams was not publicly notable before she corrected her legal name. Thankfully, her other name is not generally known. Regarding other similar women noted in this talk section, reading any of their own writings will reveal that they often detest being referred to by previous names, or the use of pronouns other than female and feminine ones. In this context, the exclusion of previous names, is primarily a matter of respect. It is difficult enough for transsexual women to garner public respect. At least this context should provide some of that much needed respect.janniejdoe 14:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birth name

I was also wondering about Addams's birth name, so I googled around and found a review/interview that states she refuses to reveal her birth name and isn't in contact with her family. I added the information to the article because I think birth names are encyclopedic, and in the case of a transwoman her refusal to reveal her birth name is doubly encyclopedic. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 19:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

What the heck is "doubly encyclopaedic"? It's baloney like this that makes wikipedia a non-credible source of information. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a source trivia information. If she refused to reveal it in interviews then it would be nice of you and others to respect it. You would not find Encyclopaedia Brittanica trying to hunt down a transgenders birthname, but then again wikipedia is just a source of a bunch of trivia. --Jamisonhalliwell (talk) 16:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I'd love to not be a part of Wikipedia

For the record, I'd love to not be a part of Wikipedia, nor any sort of encyclopedia. My life has been a series of cruel humiliations amidst strangers who discuss the morality, science and curiosity of my existence like people looking at a bug. Since childhood, I have been a simple person who loves to put on a show and win a bit of applause in an otherwise cold world. I'm sure that the name assigned to me at birth, an assignation one has no power over or input into, will come out eventually. I will endure that indignity with the same strength I've had to muster throughout a lifetime of teasing, bullying, vilification and loss. But I do care because, unlike discussing Bill Clinton being born as "Blythe", or Marilyn Monroe being born as "Norma Jean", my birth name casts doubt on my very gender in the mind of the reader/listener and rips aside whatever dignity I've managed to construct for myself. This site may run under the banner of providing information, but my experience is only that of a person swept up into a callous machine determined to vivisect my life regardless of the impact it has. I am not the President of the United States. I am not an allegedly murderous football star. I'm a simple entertainer and nothing I do is ever going to change the world. I wish Wikipedia would just leave me alone, delete me or otherwise ignore me. User:calperniaaddams 04:18, 10 February 2008 (PT)

Leaving aside issues of you proving you really are who you say you are Ms. Addams. I can easily imagine how you feel about this. (sigh) However, the fact is things that are in Wikipedia are all matters of public record. All this website does is compile them. Really honest we are not supposed to do our own investigation, ask Andrea. The only way your birth name or anything else that you do not want to be public knowledge would appear in Wikipedia is if it already appeared somewhere else. Aside from deleting this article perhaps you can tell us anything you don't want in here and We'll zap it. The whole article is probably going to be kept. Sorry.--Hfarmer (talk) 04:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that you give yourself quite enough credit, Ms. Addams. Your activism & even the simple act of being on a dating show IS changing the world-- perhaps not so drastically as your Caesars & Khans, but still notably. Wikipedia may be "callous" but the purpose of that sort of mechanization & policy is to PROTECT the subject of the entries, not to leave them open to attacks. Any teasing or bullying here would certainly be removed. I'm very sorry that you feel slighted by your inclusion here, but I hope you'll find that your fears don't materialize. --mordicai. (talk) 17:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate everyone's attention, and consideration. Again, I am not angry, only sad. While my information may be public record, the aggregation and promotion of it here is harmful to me. A rock on the ground is public property, but if used to bludgeon someone it becomes a weapon. I consider Wikipedia's inclusion of me in its project as bullying and abusive, which I state emphatically for the record, and I further state that I personally consider anyone's further support of this article as participation in that bullying. I don't plan to take any action against anyone, because that is not my style, and because Wikipedia's ability to railroad people relies heavily on our lack of resources, but simply know that I feel that those supporters are hurting me as a human being and a member of society. Congratulations. --User:calperniaaddams 13:53, 21 February 2008 (PT)

[edit] Birth Name & Transgender

Is there a forum to discuss the "Birth Name" dilemma when referring to transgender people? I am not sure it ISN'T encyclopedia-worthy, as "birth name" appears in all cases where appropriate, but I do see merit in the argument that it could be seen as being negatively critical of current gender status. A discussion & consensus on the subject would be wholly beneficial. --mordicai. (talk) 17:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Over at WikiProject LGBT I've started up a discussion on the subject. Something essential that was pointed out to me is MOS:IDENTITY which states not uncertainly:

A transgender, transsexual or genderqueer person's latest preference of name and pronoun should be adopted when referring to any phase of that person's life, unless this usage is overridden by that person's own expressed preference as to how this should be managed. Nevertheless, write to avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (e.g., she fathered her first child).

So that is good to know. I'd encourage any one interested to weigh in over there &/or here with thoughts & opinions. --mordicai. (talk) 16:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reference 1

Does the reference shown as reference 1 really have that title? The link doesn't go to that page. Corvus cornix_talk 22:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Calpernia's wishes

I'm looking at Calpernia's wishes to have the article removed as she does not feel herself to be notable enough to have an article and she also has a (well-founded?) fear of her birth name and info being added to the article. Now I know we consider her to be a notable figure as a result of the AFD discussion, but I also know we have precedent for removing her birth name/information if it gets added to the article... see Brandy Alexandre. But that's a reactive stance and I'm wondering about a proactive stance... how do people feel if I were to permanently semi-protect the article? That way only registered (and presumably long-term) editors will be able to modify it. Tabercil (talk) 19:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the protection policy, articles are not protected as a pre-emptive measure. I do not see how this could be construed any other way. If the information is somehow ascertained and added to the article, the edits in question can be deleted and oversighted, per BLP policy and Calpernia's wishes. -MBK₀₀₄ 19:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thank you. I had forgotten about that particular clause. Tabercil (talk) 20:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] pursuant to WP:NOR

I will be removing any and all statements from this article that do not have a propper citation to back them up. Anyone who want's to add to this article will have to find those references. --Hfarmer (talk) 00:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I re-entered the crucial and well-cited details of the case (which were backed up by the existing 'An Inconvenient Woman' article), but Hfarmer removed them again pending cites. I've put in the cites (much of the information was already supported by the 'inconvenient woman' article, and I added an IMDB and 2nd NYTimes article cite), and hopefully Hfarmer will not repeat that deletion.

The information in question is relevant for this article (who was Winchell to Ms. Addams, what happened that made any of these people notable, what were the circumstances vis-a-vis Ms. Addams) and has been re-introduced to provide this needed context for readers.

I certainly sympathize with the desire to keep private information private - but this information (the circumstances of her relationship with, and the subsequent death of, Barry Winchell) is public and well-cited and neither NOR nor BLP applies. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Um. Is there a reason to have a quotation for each of the refs? Seems to me the three France refs and two Clines should be combined and the quotations removed - if anyone wants to read them, they're welcome to, but the extra text doesn't really add to the article.

And is there a need to have so much info on Winchell and his murder in the article about Addams? Per WP:BLP1E and WP:UNDUE, I'd like to trim some of that back. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I definitely think it can/could be reduced. However, as the information was blanked as 'uncited' despite the existing cite, I wanted to make sure each assertion was specifically cited, so decisions can be made about what stays and what goes without blanking. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that was more about the subject's complaints than it was about the refs. Thanks for your work on it, though, that helps keep it up to BLP standards! -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Ain't nothing but a thing :) Glad to help. Thanks Satyr. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:00, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I reduced the bio's grisly details into the germane biographical aspects of the case, in my humble opinion. Thoughts? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Nope by the strictest interpretation of the no original research policy each and every statement in this article should be backed by a good solid citation. I know how this goes because I got really involved in this for other people. Thier are things that it can be said "everybody knows". But in reality not everybody knows and having this here will inform more people. In particular the person this article is about has asked that it be totally deleted. We should really cover WP's backside and make sure we are on good ground in case a lawsuit happens at some point. --Hfarmer (talk) 23:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 'Transgendered' in intro

Hi folks. I made this edit. My reason is that without it I could not find anywhere in the article that explains why the rest of the article's details occurred (why Winchell was murdered, why Ms. Addams is a transgendered-rights activist, why the relationship was exploited by political groups, etc. It's not to 'tar' or otherwise label her, it's because without it, it's not clear why these events occurred. The categories at the bottom are helpful but they're not part of the editorial content, and this sort of up-front description appears to be in line with other articles under the 'transgendered and transsexual actors' category. Thoughts? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like it got accidentally removed recently during a vandalism clean-up, so I have restored. — Satori Son 15:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Strange...

...how nobodies are getting their own pages these days. Time was, you had to do something to get in an encyclopedia. Obviously that has changed. 70.53.111.195 (talk) 22:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• Leaving aside the mean-spiritedness of this comment and stifling my speculation as to why you felt the need to bother, if you have some concern about the notability guidelines as they apply to this article then take it up at WP:N. But you might want to make an account first, since the opinions of anonymous hit-and-run editors tend not to carry any weight. Otto4711 (talk) 00:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You don't have to worry, I won't be bothering to bring it up anywhere else because the response would be about the same whether or not I created an account. There is no mean-spiritedness; this person has not done enough to warrant an article. I shouldn't have bothered saying anything because I know the type of people who edit this encyclopedia. They do not listen to anyone who does not already think as they do. 70.53.111.195 (talk) 01:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)