Talk:Cable railway

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Melbourne used to have at least one cable tramway, and I think there are some preserved elsewhere in the world... San Francisco perhaps? Andrewa 17:32, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Aha! Yes, see Cable car (railway), San Francisco cable car system. Andrewa 17:38, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Merge proposal 2 Article too specific 3 Areas for expansion 4 Funiculars, Cable Cars & Cable Railways 5 A proposal 6 Turnouts?

[edit] Merge proposal

I think that a cable railway is distinct from a funicular, the former being a general means of transport thorugh a city, the latter being to overcome specific grades and usually at a uniform inclination. (Should not be merged) - Leonard G. 22:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Leonard G. All funiculars are cable railways, but not all cable railways are funiculars. The major difference is that a funicular is a self-contained railway, that is the inclined portion of a funicular is the entire railways. Many non-funicular cable railways are connected to a regular non-inclined line at top and bottom. Also all funiculars are (I think) passenger carrying, while many cable railways are freight only. Keep them as separate articles with cross-links as appropriate. Gwernol 01:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Disagree with proposal. I also regard funiculars and cable railways as different for the reasons stated by others. There is probably a good case for the two articles to be checked and edited to make this clear and to remove any parts that do not clearly conform to the distinct definitions, that is all. Geof Sheppard 07:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article too specific

Somewhat in line with the previous comments, I think that the content of the article is far too specific for the general nature of the title.

To my mind, a cable railway is a railway where the vehicles are propelled by cable. It has nothing to do with gradient; whilst many cable railways do indeed conquer steep gradients, others are completely horizontal. We already have two articles on different specialised forms of cable railways, cable cars and funiculars. I think this article should be rewritten to cover the general case. -- Chris j wood 19:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Areas for expansion

Would it be worth expanding as follows:

Setting the context, early railways/tramroads used in extractive industries (Coal, Slate) and general flow of loaded traffic was downhill to rivers, ports or canals with empty wagons returning uphill. Until the full or development of the steam locomotive the use of inclined planes with gravity balances allowed railway lines to avoid heavy engineering and access otherwise inaccessible areas.

Perhaps some reference to pioneering railways in North East England and the use of stationary engines for both haulage on the incline and level. Ie a freight cable railway going beyond the inclines.

To expand types to distinguish between Table inclines (such as that pictured at Dinorwic)where the wagon rested on a table (these being closer to Funicular's and generally for steeper inclines) and ordinary inclines where the wagon was attached directly. Recognising that table inclines might be any of gravity/water balance or powered.

Mention or link to the "Brake" or "Drumhouse" which is often one of the striking surviving features. Horizontal and vertical drums.

That said we are drifting away from the title. That is more a matter of re-titling as this is an important area.Crantock 13:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Funiculars, Cable Cars & Cable Railways

Cable Cars attach and detach themselves to a continuously moving rope (definition), like the former Dunedin (NZ) Cable Car systems.

But while the car of a Funicular is permanently attached to the rope, which is stopped as required, do there have to be two cars counterbalancing each other?

The Funicular page says there have to be two counterbalancing cars with the one going down helping pull the other one up.

The Cable railway page has three categories:

• Cable car (railway):
• Funicular cars permanently attached to cable
• Cable railway for freight

So what is a passenger system called, with one car permanently attached to a cable, and hauled up and down an incline by winding and unwinding the cable from a winch? Is it a Cable Car, Cable Railway, or Funicular?

In Wellington there are 200 or 300 small systems for individual houses on steep sections. Most have a steep path going up (or down) to the house too. Generally with a small open car for 2 to 4 people. And slow; it was quicker to walk up to my son’s house, as it took several (4-5) minutes to go from the bottom to the top of the section!

There must be some similar larger public or mass transit systems with only one track, and only one car which is permanently attached to the cable.

PS: Wellington also has the Wellington Cable Car which is really a Funicular but has been called a Cable Car since 1902, when it was opened! Hugo999 12:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The term funicular, as an adjective, means: "relating to or operated by a cable" [1]. Therefore it does not matter whether there is one unbalanced car, one car balanced by a bucket of water moving vertically in a shaft, or two balanced cars. The important thing, I would suggest, is that the cars are permanently attached to the cables.

These Wellington funiculars sound interesting. Got any pictures?

EdJogg 13:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The Southend Cliff Railway [2] is a single-car funicular. It uses a counterweight that rolls in guides beneath the tracks. I am sure there were more single-car examples (I was reading the Shire Album only last night!), but I didn't have time to trawl through every example on this excellent site to find any more.)

The Funicular railway article needs a lot of attention to allow it to reflect the existence of single-car, alternately-balanced systems.

EdJogg 14:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Other single-car examples include: Margate Lido, dismantled in 1970's; and Broadstairs, abandoned in 1991. EdJogg 01:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is the only company website I can find, though there must be more than one company involved in Wellington (NZ)! And I think they are generally unbalanced (no counterweights). Some run on a single I-beam. Perhaps some on turning track have an internal motor, though most I think are cable-operated. They were recently re-regulated in NZ after a fatality on a private system in Nelson, and it was found that the previous requirement for inspection (by local council) had been dropped during deregulation and reorganisation. There is a New Zealand Standard for them; NZS 5270, 2005. Hugo999 14:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC) Access Automation

On the former Denniston Incline (NZ) full rail trucks of coal going down pulled the empty ones up. But the rail trucks were attached and detached to/from the cable. What is (was) it? Cable? Funicular? See: Denniston Incline Hugo999 02:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Great video! Looks like a fairly standard 'Gravity Balance' type, as described in the article, although they only appear to send one wagon at a time (see Cromford and High Peak Railway, where trains of wagons were moved). The main difference between cable railways and funiculars, at least as far as WP is concerned (!), is that, for the latter, the rail vehicles are permanently attached to the cable.

I'm sure there must have been cases where a gravity type was additionally powered by a stationary engine, or a stationary engine -type had two tracks, but we'll have to wait for others to provide examples.

EdJogg 12:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The Wellington Cable Car is a gravity Funicular with two linked cars going up and down, and with power assist (steam then electricity) for when there were more passengers going up! Originally two parallel tracks, but now a single track with a passing loop in the middle & the cars guided by the wheel flanges onto the right loop. Like the Denniston Incline it originally also had a raised centre Fell rail for braking only (but not for traction as in a true Fell system). See Melbourne cable tramway system for details of it. Hugo999 13:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed then that the private 2-4 person Wellington cable cars are funiculars, so I will add as Ref. to the Funicular page; a company website but with good photos! Hugo999 04:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A proposal

I'm proposing a small re-organization of articles including this one at: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Trains#Cable_railways:_a_proposal. I'd be grateful for your thoughts. Please post comment to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Trains#Cable_railways:_a_proposal to keep the discussion in one place. Many thanks, Gwernol 18:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Turnouts?

The section on turnouts is confusing. It seems to have little to do with turnouts (points), although these are mentioned in passing. The second paragraph seems to describe a particular type of gravity working, and does not fit with the section title. Rework, please?

EdJogg (talk) 14:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)