Talk:Bnei Menashe

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[edit] Where, when

"A group of 54 Jewish persons from Mizoram in northeastern India, who claim to be descendants of an ancient Jewish tribe, arrived here on Tuesday." Which Tuesday? Where is here? Israel, I suppose.

Myer Samra 15:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea which Tuesday, but I presume "Israel" was meant, or some specific locale w/in Israel. Since the supposèdly offending text has since apparently been removed from the article, however, this line of discussion seems to be "dead". Tom e r ^talk 03:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Red Colored Sea

This is an error, since the Hebrew text of Exodus speaks of a sea of reeds, as in the plants. Using red sea is a mistranslation. Taltman 22:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It's an error made by the Chin, who evidently amended their harvest song to make it accord with the version of Exodus (Red Sea, not Reed Sea) that the missionaries gave them. PiCo 13:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The Red Sea translation is not an "error" in the way suggested, in that most Eurpoean languages, Arabic and others with a Christian translation of the bible, refer to the Red Sea, in words that are not necessarily similar to the word "reed" in their languages. This is the form in which it appears in the Septuagint, the original Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek. However, the term Tui Pui Sen, Big Red Water, can also mean something like "raging river".Myer Samra 15:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the original Hebrew uses "yam suf", lit. "sea of rushes" or "sea of reeds". The Documentary Hypothesis insists on calling translating this as "Red Sea" is "in error", but since the proponents of the DH weren't there, their pontifications should be taken with a grain of salt. To this day, the Hebrew name for the Red Sea is still "Yam Suf". I don't know where the relevant reeds are [i.e., the ones that give the Sea its name], nor do I much care, the fact of the matter remains that it's preposterous to pretend that the Hebrew name for the Red Sea is based on a mistranslation of the Bible into other languages. For all any of us know today, the water of the Red Sea really was red at one point, or even just the water at the north end, where it was possibly overgrown with reeds. I don't know the origin of the English toponym "Red Sea", nor does anyone else. Neither does anyone know the origin of the Hebrew toponym "ים סוף" The point is, this "oh, that's wrong, because we know that's all just a mistranslation" is really all just idle speculation, in this case, apparently, especially geared toward cynical and remarkably unscholarly attempts to discredit the Bnei Menashe by seizing on the most inconsequential of nebulous details, and, effectively, making a mountain out of a molehill. Tom e r ^talk 03:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population?

Can we get a figure for the number of Bnei Menashe?

Well there are a few million of them, however only about 7,000 have follow Judaism. Even the Christians are considered Bnei Menashe. Also more and more of them are starting to observe Judaism, so the actual number today is probably much larger the 7,000. --Spoil29 19:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

There are a few million Chin-Kuki-Mizo tribesmen, but the term "Benei Menashe" is reserved for the few thousand actually practising Judaism. Myer Samra 17:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The latest numbers I've seen indicate they number approximately 9k, perhaps slightly more, but probably still <10k. Tom e r ^talk 03:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shinlung?

I can't figure out if they are also called the Shinlung tribe, or the Sinlung tribe, even though Shinglung sounds more correct to me.

I've wondered about this as well...nearly every other text refers to them as "Shinlung". It bears mentioning tho, that the Shinlung (lit. "cave dwellers") are not a tribe, but an outsiders' designation (Burmese, I believe) for any number of peoples of nw burma and ne india, few of whom actually live in caves.

Tomer ^TALK 15:55, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

myanmar Gringo300 08:26, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

uh...any reason for that remark? Do you know anything about the Shinlung vs. Sinlung question? Or just kibbitzing again? Tom e r ^TALK 05:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok....exactly how many people were converted in Mizoram and Manipur? One place says 700 [1], and most places write 220.

Here's the real kicker....A Washington times report states that 700 people were converted [2], and another states that only 220 were converted [3], the funny thing is that both was written by the same guy.

From what I understand, at the time 800 (not 700) had already made aliya, and 220 or so were converted by the rabbinical delegation prior to being recalled. As I understand it, that makes about 1020 Bnei Menashe who are "officially" Jewish, with another 7000 waiting for the porazniqim in the Government to stop dragging their feet. The entire mishegas is a chilul Hashem, but then the likes of Shinui regard that as a feather in their cap, so no surprise there. Tom e r ^talk 09:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I've read a lot about them, and had the privilege to meet a few. I would not characterize it as a chilu hashem, as they are hard-working, modest people, who lead devout lives as Jews, and sincerely want to be part of kelal Yisrael. That said, I don't give much credence to the notion that they are descended from ancient Jews--although they believe so, as do their advocates such as Rabbi Avichayil. Rabbi Avichayil has his own theological-political reasons for converting them and encouarging them to make aliyah to Israel, he believes he is truly effecting a kibbutz galuyot-ingathering of the Exiles, as well as strengthening the Jewish demography of Israel and the territories in particular. It is no coincidence that upon their aliyah they were settled mostly in Gush Katif. My own personal opinion is that if they demonstrate a desire to convert, and make aliyah to Israel they should be assisted in doing so--but on an individual basis, not en masse, as that cheapens Judaism--as a community in Israel so many of them have proven themselves an asset to the country. ShmorgelBorgel 16:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you've misinterpreted what I was saying. The chilul Hashem I was referring to is the way the antireligious ministers in the Israeli government have dragged their feet and put up unnecessary and obstinate obstacles for the Bnei Menashe. I don't know whether they're descended from ancient bnei yisra'el or not, nor do I particularly think that whether they are is especially relevant to any subject other than eschatology—something far outside the purview of this article. You're right tho...it's no coïncidence that they mostly settled in gush qatif (and some in gush etzion, I believe)...at least according to the JPress some years back, qibutzim and moshavim elsewhere would not accept them. Tom e r ^talk 22:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The term "Shinlung" or "Sinlung" is not the name of a tribe. In Mizo, "Chhinlung" is the term for the cave from which Chin-Kuki-Mizo legend says they emerged. "Sinlung" is the Hmar dialect equivalent, although Rochunga Pudaite's book "The Education of the Hmar People" identifies this as a town, possibly in China. While western writers have used "Shinlung" to mean either all the Chin-Kuki-Mizo peoples or more particularly those practising Judaism, in fact a) the dialects in Manipur and Mizoram don't have a phoneme equivalent to English "sh", and b) most of the tribes in Manipur are not familiar with any of the variations above [Chhinlung, Shinlung or Sinlung], using words like Khul or Khur to refer to the primordial cave.

In 2005, 218 people were converted in Mizoram, but the Rabbis were unable to get to Maninpur as their permits were wthdrawn, so no conversions occurrd there. See article "Bnei Menashe Conversions Halted" by Matthew Wagner, Jerusalem Post Internet Edition Nov. 9 2005.

There had, however, been over 800 converted and settled in Israel prior to this date.

Myer Samra 16:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Do they look asian, like mongoloid?

[edit] Nice article

Quite a god article on this obscure people. But it doesn't have a list of references - really would help if one were provided. PiCo 13:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

If you are interested in serious works on the topic, in addition to Dr Shalva Weil's article to which there is a link at note 13 in the main article, you might like to consult the following:

Hillel Halkin: Across the Sabbath River: In Search of a Lost Tribe of Israel, Houghton Mifflin, Boston & New York (2002);

Tudor Parfitt: The Lost Tribes of Israel - The History of a Myth, Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London (2002);

Tudor Parfitt & Emanuela Trevisan Semi: Judaising Movements: Studies in the Margins of Judaism, Routledge Curzon, London (2002);

Myer Samra: "The Tribe of Manassh: 'Judaism' in the Hills of Manipur and Mizoram", in Man in India, 1991, (Special Edition) 71 (1): 183-202;

Myer Samra: "Judaism in Manipur and Mizoram: By-Product of Christian Mission"' in Australian Journal of Jewish Studies, 1992, 6 (1): 7-22;

Myer Samra: "Buallawn Israel: The emergence of a judaising movement in Mizoram, Northeast India", in Lynette Olson (ed.), Religious Change, conversion and Culture, Sydney Studies in Society & Culture, 12, Sydney (1996), Pp. 105-131;

Shalva Weil: "Lost Israelites from the Indo-Burmese Borderlans: Re-Traditionalisation ad Conversion Among the Shinlung or Bene Menasseh", in The Anthropologist, 2004, 6 (3): 219-233.

Myer Samra 17:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Myer. I've got Tudor Parfitt's book, "Lost Tribes of Israel." My interest in this subject is jourlanistic - I've written an article on the Jews of Burma, largely based on a visit to the synagogue in Yangon (I'm not a scholar, I'm a writer of feature articles), but including an overview of the Kuki - based on Tudor Parfitt's bok, "Lost Tribes of Israel". This is a pretty thin basis for even a 1200-word Saturday magazine article, so I've never offered it up for publication. What I need to do is go visit the Kuki, but I doubt the Burmese would let me into Chin State, nor the Indians into NE India. Have you visited these places? PiCo 06:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll tell you the truth about these mizo who call themselves the lost tribes of Israel, the real reason is economic opportunities coupled with Mizo fundamentalist christians obsession with Biblical Israel. This was particularly fanned after some mizo's notably Zaithanchhungi and C Rokhuma visited Israel and propagated all these rosy pictures of Israel, both of whom published books of their travellogue painting Jews as super people and arabs as the devil of all evils, especially in Ziathanchhungi's book. Her descriptions of arabs are downright racist ( of course I beleieved her when i read her book when I was in my early teens) and the religious leaders saw an opportunity in this and begun to call themselves the lost tribes of Israel, despite their obvious looks and traditions no different than the rest of Mizo's who migrated from Burma to mizoram. After some mizos started migrating to Israel they sent money to their families backhome and seeing how they helped their family, others want to go to Israel too. It is a disgrace for the mizo people to sold themselves to serve as labour for jewish people in Israel. If mizoram was developed like western countries and people have a chance to make a decent living, NONE of these mizo will convert to Judaism except a few religious fanatic ones. (for your information unskilled labour in mizoram earn $3 a day)

Pico|Pico, you can visit any North East state. You only need special permit from the embassy/High Commision and consulates where you applied your visa or at airport in major cities and other offices in major cities. Apparently, you can't travel alone to certain NE states--Aryanbeauty 14:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

There is not one redeeming piece of information in your entire rant, and we are all dumber for having read it. May God have mercy on your soul. Tom e r ^talk 22:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What On Earth Indeed

[4]Re TShilo12's editing comment "what on earth? That is _not_ what the article says. this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a 2nd grade book report".Tomer, please take note too as it may help stall your descent into dumberness.

Dude, I'll ignore your hilarious assessment and instead question your comprehension of English.........that is exactly what it says.

"Having successfully completed this task, the priest would place the animal on an altar and offer it up to God, in the process reciting a series of ancient Bnei Menashe chants and prayers. Perhaps the most extraordinary of them is known among the Bnei Menashe as "Miriam's song." We had to cross the Red Sea," it began. "Our enemies were coming after us with chariots but the sea swallowed them all as if they were meat. We are led by the cloud during the day and by fire at night. Take those birds for the food, and drink water coming out from the rock."

Now you may not like this but I have checked with a range of Kuki-Mizo-Chin elders; their collective opinion is that not only the name "Miriam's Song" but everything the non-English/Hebrew-speaking 81yo Mendel "Kingbol" and "Yossi" are reported as claiming in this partisan article by Michael Freund is balderdash to put it kindly. Finally, these are NOT your people or your history being discussed, it's mine. You share a religion with the BM, not an ethnicity; the sooner you accept that and get on with supporting them in a practical manner instead of petty wiki comments/deletions, the better their chances of integrating into Israeli society. Migration is tough on anyone, including the faithful. Cheers, Junglebells --Jinglebells01 23:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Ahh...a message from Tomer who it seems is TShilo as wel(do correct me if I'm wrong) from my usertalk page:

"You have misinterpreted my remarks. I have, accordingly, reëdited the portion of the article relevant to your message on my talkpage. Shared religion vs. shared ethnicity, apparently a major driving factor for your remarks, should not taint editors' contributions. Please review WP:NPOV again. Regards, Tomertalk 23:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Dude, BION, it's not actually a case of "shared religion vs. shared ethnicity, apparently a major driving factor for your remarks"; it's about that funny old thing, TRUTH, something I have access to because I happen to be from the tribe concerned and have legitimate research contacts.

In fact, isn't it your supposed shared Israelite ethnicity with the BM that's driving you to delete the truth and accuse others of lacking NPOV. I mean, how neutral (or mature!) are comments like "There is not one redeeming piece of information in your entire rant, and we are all dumber for having read it"? Get a grip, man! I have no interest in an editing war but gee whizz, you seem hellbent on suppressing information. Jinglebells01 00:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Including text about "this comes as a surprise to XYZ" is not encyclopedic. Saying that Freund claimed something when Freund is just reporting what he's been told by the Bnei Menashe is not "truth", it's poor comprehension and poorer writing. You're clearly too deeply invested in the subject matter to write about it from a neutral POV, and your assertion that I can't because I'm Jewish is, frankly, offensive. My interest here is in writing an encyclopedia, not in deleting "truth", only in deleting "rubbish". Tomer ^talk 00:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MORE FROM TSHILO/TOMER!

From the history page

S/T: "First off, Freund isn't making any claims, he's merely reporting what he's been told, if anyone's making claims it's the Bnei Menashe. Second, this tripe about ppl being surprised is not encyclopedic)"

S/T's editing legend: "putting this back into English". And "poor comprehension and poorer writing".

The para in question which S/T has since changed (snore): Michael Freund reports that the Bnei Menashe have a chant they call Miriam's Prayer[3]. Apart from the fact that this will come as news to the millions of Kuki-Chin-Mizo who have celebrated the Sikpui Festival all their lives, the same article states that "a century ago, when British missionaries first arrived in India's northeast, they were astonished to find that the local tribesmen worshiped one god, were familiar with many of the stories of the Bible, and were practicing a form of biblical Judaism". By all empirical accounts, the entire tribe were animists at the time of the arrival of the missionaries.[citation needed].

1. Aha! So we agree that "if anyone's making claims it's the (few thousand) Bnei Menashe, not the several million-strong Kuki-Chin-Mizo tribe as a whole. Religion can make people believe anything. See Rastafarians.

2. When I can be bothered, I'll trawl again for citations previously deleted by unhelpful people.

3. "tripe about ppl being surprised is not encyclopedic" : So true. There is absolutely no account of astonished missionaries arriving in the jungles of NE India to find a form of Judaism let alone people familiar with the Bible. And let me assure you those busybee missionaries and rajwallahs wrote a lot of books about their adventures among the *savage heathens*.

And S/T, do I have to set a bush on fire to convince you that those of my people who have heard of this claim were not only surprised but bemused. The Sikpui Hla (like a rose:)is the Sikpui Hla; you can rename it all you like but it's still the Sikpui Hla. For some reason, Geldof's mob trilling "and there won't be snow in Africa this Christmas time" comes to mind.

4. Truly, your English is far superior to that of this humble tribalwallah and I bow before it, if not to your argument.Jinglebells01 01:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC) BTW, tripe is YUM, especially in a fiery hot Kuki-Chin-Mizo stew, and menudo of course.

Wikipedia is not a blog, neither is it a soapbox. Please stop treating it like one. Tomer ^talk 07:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

What, taking your ill-mannered, ill-informed comments apart is verboten?? Could this be yet another attempt at suppressing information? Surely not!! As for my *rubbish* vs your *truthiness*, perhaps it's time other admins checked it out, if only to remind you to mind your manners.Jinglebells01 02:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I couldn't agree more. Please file a request for comments. Thank you. Tomer ^talk 07:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Much better. "Please" and "thank you" - so civilised, yaar! And out of respect for your newly found manners, I'll wait until the next round of suppression (yawn) before filing a request. Cheers, Big Ears, Junglebells Jinglebells01 23:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SOCKPUPPETMANIA (bells, bells, and more bells)

My, oh my: notice that Junglebells, Jinglebells01, Hellsbells222, Hellsbellsinheaven, etc. have done most of the edits through the history of this page? Can anyone say SOCKPUPPET?? Divebomber1 10:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Apologies if anyone actually thought I was attempting sockpuppetry - thought it fairly obvious all the above usernames are closely related, not to mention my not-good-enough-for-some-people-*Inglis*. Only reason I change names is not because I'm pretending to be someone else (as if!) but because either I forget my password if I haven't been on for a while, or the old name's just naff. I don't normally sit around trying to think up dead cool permanent fakenames but I quite like Junglebells:-) And for this crime of having silly names, *someone* has just apparently tried to block me. Junglebells 01:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Also wish to add (before I REALLY get blocked for some trumped-up crime) that it's because of my collective contribution to the BM page that it's been rated B and mid-level importance. It is also the most linked-to page on the BM. The only stuff I delete are things I find redundant from my own contributions and peopel are welcome to revert if they disagree. What I don't like is the attempts by various people to delete wholesale chunks of relevant information. I'm interested in continuing updating the information as it comes to me via various sources so let's see if I get to do that or get suppressed. Junglebells 01:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You have been a victim of a fradulent...

...block notice. According to your block log, you have not been blocked at all. That user (User:Divebomber1) who added the templates either jumped to conclusions or were trying to trick you. NF24(radio me!Editor review) 22:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC

Cheers for that, NF24-- Junglebells (talk) 19:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

See also ebooksgratis.com: no banners, no cookies, totally FREE.

Talk:Bnei Menashe

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Contents

[edit] Where, when

[edit] Red Colored Sea

[edit] Population?

[edit] Shinlung?

[edit] Nice article

[edit] What On Earth Indeed

[edit] MORE FROM TSHILO/TOMER!

[edit] SOCKPUPPETMANIA (bells, bells, and more bells)

[edit] You have been a victim of a fradulent...

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