Talk:Blues dance

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Contents 1 Article name 2 Copyright violation 3 Up/down 4 misperceptions 5 cultural specificity 6 Reworking the article 7 ??? 8 Inappropriate attempts at globalization 9 Citations, referencing sources and making this article really solid 9.1 Citations - let's play nice 9.2 Subheadings to deal with issues of cultural/social specificity and context 9.3 Information that would strengthen this article 10 ooops 11 Understanding the context 12 Handy, blues, and 1892

[edit] Article name

The name of this article is inconsistent with the names of other dance articles. Shouldn't it be "Blues (dance)"? I thought that this article was missing for that reason and almost created a duplicate. In any case, it does look like this article needs to be cleaned up. Cswrye 02:04, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

IMO "blues dance" is the most common term, so I moved the article there. // Habj 09:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright violation

On 01:48, 4 December 2004, an anonymous user (Special:Contributions/68.143.85.178) inserted copyrighted material from this page, with a notice that it had been used with permission. For such material to be used, it must be licensed under the terms of the GNU Free Document License, and permission must be obtained as described on the header of Wikipedia:Copyright problems.

As such, I've reverted to the version before the copyrighted information was inserted, and will begin wikifying the article shortly. Jude (talk) 10:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Up/down

I can not agree on the notion that lindy hop is "up". On the contrary, you are constantly told that the bounce should be "down". // Habj 10:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] misperceptions

There are a lot of mistaken things taken as fact about Blues Dancing and Lindy Hop and their realtionship. Lindy Hop is a downward "bouncing" dance. Lindy Hop simply slowed down is not a Blues dance. Blues Dance refers to a genre not a single dance. It shares a number of elements with Lindy Hop since they were developed by the same culture, just as Jazz and Blues are related, and often share elements. Damon.stone 19:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cultural specificity

This article seems to be largely discussing the American history of blues dancing, in the 'post-revival' era (ie post lindy revival), which has led to a few generalisations which really don't apply to the wider international swing dance community. It would be worth mentioning the blues dancing parties at Herrang (not sure if they had blues dancing every year at Herrang, or when it started). It's also worth discussing the blues dancing traditions in other contemporary swing dance communties. As an example, certain Australian cities have had strong blues dancing cultures within their rock and roll dancing scenes, or within the live blues music scenes _beyond the lindy scenes. This would need more research.

Could someone add the full bio details for the books referenced (eg dates published, where published, publisher, title, author/editor), 'complete works of blahblah' isn't useful if you're researching that particular point or wanting to support that point.PlainJane 10:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It is culturally specific by necessity. Since the term has cultural, historical, and academic meanings the article should discuss these things. IF you want to research all the dances that are done to Blues music but don't qualify as Blues dance from the cultural, historical or academic standard prevelant among dance historians, cultural anthropologists, or ethnomusicologists who specialze in "native dance forms" then feel free to do so, but ensure that you properly identify it as such.

In regards to BDG reference citation... since all three of her major works on the topic address the point specifically and generally it is a valid citation... though if you prefer I could include pages 1-220 for DITD, 12-75 60-94 and 201-236 for BDB, etc. etc. etc.

Dave... it is "highly disputed" only by those who haven't done the research. Until they have actually read the books listed, interviewed ethnomusicologists, dance historians, and social anthropologists who specialize in this kind of thing, their opinions don't stand up to peer review of the academic world... I know a five year old who would highly dispute the fact that green leafy vegetables are good for you because they make him feel "icky"... should I go and delete the health benefits on wikipedia's spinache entry?

IF you want to change the meaning, add or delete statements given, please include citations that support your doing so. Simply saying that the citations aren't exact enough is not appropriate for deletion by Wikipedia's rules. 'citation needed' is the appropriate tag. The fact is every statement in this article can be supported by printed works, and even by video documentries, and interviews with first person sources.

I take the point that this is a discussion of a specific dance and music culture, yet it is not sufficient to assume that every reference to blues dancing today actually applies to blues dancing in every country in the contemporary swing dance world. If this is a discussion only of African American or American blues dancing, then it should be renamed 'blues dancing in the United States'. BTW, could you please sign your comments so we can keep track of who's making which points? Thanks. Oh, and it might be worth remembering that we're all friends here until someone kicks you on the dance floor and doesn't apologise. PlainJane 13:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reworking the article

I have reworked this article to tidy up the written expression and manage the issue of cultural specificity, adding in references to the international blues dancing community. More work is needed here, and it's probably interesting to explore why blues dancing had didfficulties becoming established in places like Korea or Japan, where there were/re strong cultrual factors discouraging the intimacy of touch demanded by partners in blues dancing.

I am sceptical of the claim that there is an 'authentic' blues tradition (where? this is not specified) because blues dancing wasn't taken up by the white American mainstream. There is evidence throughout various dance scholars' work that it is not simply a matter of black dances moving to the mainstream - the influence of white media and culture and the very fact that black dances were taken up by the white mainstream has had effects on black dance culture. This is something addressed in work by Jane Desmond, Hazzard Gordon, Dixon Smith, Johnathon David Jackson, Tommy DeFrantz etc etc etc - even in Malcolm X's biography you can read descriptions of how black dancers felt about white dancers doing 'black dance' and how this then affected what black dancers did on the dance floor.

You need to make a stronger argument for this point, provide clearer references (which is difficult when you're dealing with oral history, of course) or reword the section to account for these issues.

NB Referencing generally: clearer referencing is required - please cite specific articles, books, etc. Page numbers would be even better. Please add full bibliographical information for references - publishers, place published, year published as well as author and title.PlainJane 07:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit]  ???

I'm not sure what you are refering to re: Authentic Blues Tradition and not being picked up by mainstream White America... and then you cite sources that actually address this very issue... that is to say that media attention brought many Black dances out of the urban and rural Black communities and into Middle and Upper Middle Class White America... as such there were numerous changes made to how those dances were danced in White America which in several cases ended up removing a lot of the Africanist Aesthetic.

As to including more international representation to the topic, it would be nice if you gave some sources for this information. The people I've talked to in different countries seem to be more on the side of playing slow emotive music which is as often not Blues as it is Blues, and the dancing being done often has few or no ties to the traditions and aesthetic of Vernacular dances recognized as Blues.

This is certainly not the case everywhere, but some form of citation, book, website, videoclips etc. should be provided if you are going to include it in this entry.

I think this was a miscommunication - I've reworded the article to get rid of it. BTW you need to sign and date stamp these comments.PlainJane 13:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inappropriate attempts at globalization

Okay just so we don't go back and forth on this... in the US when the words white and black are used to refer to race they are capitalized. So is Blues when being used to refer to the African-American (read Black) music and dance genre. Just as Lindy Hop and Swing dance should both be capitalized when refering to specific names. The Wikipedia article in question is discussing an artform born and developed in the US, using terms particular to its culture. Stop changing them without something more specific than, "we don't use them this way in Australia." That is not a valid argument.

If you want to discuss Australia's unique contribution to the English language, or how your country dances to Blues music you are welcome to do so... but that does not necessitate or justify changing anything this article, a simple additional paragraph or two or wiki-stub would suffice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.236.86.163 (talk) 07:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

It is not a uniform convention in American scholarly writing to capitalise 'black', and certainly not 'white'. It might be more appropriate to use 'African American' if it's contentious. There has been an ongoing discussion/debate about capitalising dance names - lindy hop is not a proper noun, unless you're specifically referring to Lindy (Charles Lindbergh, someone called 'Lindy') hop. You don't capitalise salsa or tango, so you don't capitalise lindy. I can't remember where the discussion on capitalising got to over on the lindy hop discussion page, so I figure it doesn't matter so long as it's consistent within the article. PlainJane 13:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

And it isn't a uniform convention in America to not capitalize them. If you can't cite specific sources to back up your changes, just leave them alone. Our Governmental census forms and a number of scholarly works written on race relations and Civil Rights here in America capitalize White and Black. As to Lindy Hop being capitalized, it is a proper Noun, a proper Noun is a name of a person, place or thing. Lindy Hop is a specific thing and properly speaking should always be written as the Lindy Hop. General trends in reducing the formalization of words in writing and acceptance of slang in America has cause things like the Lindy Hop to go out of vogue and be refered to both in writing and in verbal communication as simply lindy hop, or even lindy. However since it is accepted academically as a proper name for the dance, just as Blues is considered a proper name for the genre, capitalization is perfectly appropriate. In this case of Blues it is actually not just appropriate but more correct since lowercase blues refers to the emoition/mood while uppercase Blues is the proper name of a genre of music and dance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.49.221.27 (talk) 20:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Citations, referencing sources and making this article really solid

This is a really interesting article and there are some great minds with lots of knowledge at work on it. It'd be nice if we could play nice and work constructively to make a well-structured, well-researched and really interesting article. I feel that the recent spate of edits/undos are the result of misunderstandings and can be overcome!

[edit] Citations - let's play nice

This article is largely based on heresay and speculation - or, as I like to think of it - on oral history, anecdotal discussions and amateur sociological and historical field work. If there are cases (as there certainly are) where we can't cite a published sourece, we should use qualifiers such as "as a social dance with very little published history or records, much of the blues dance history written here is the product of collated oral histories, amateur sociological and historical research and other unpublished matter". Wikiepedia has a policy of not accepting unpublished or original research, but I feel that the unpublished stuff in this area is actually far more useful and often far more accurate than many published works... if there are even any serious published pieces discussing these issues. So I would be happy to accept unreferenced points, so long as they are qualified.

I have removed all the 'citations needed' from the main article (replacing them with phrases like 'anecdotal evidence suggests' (can't remember exact examples, sorry)) and suggest that we discuss ways of citing or making clear the fact that much of this information has no published record here on these discussion pages instead. This article needs that tag at the top that lets readers know that this article needs work, and needs to cite its sources, rather than cluttering the article itself with evidence of disputes over citations.

We are still needing full bilbiographic details for a couple of the books/articles/whatever they are in the list of citations. Using proper bibliographic details for published works is important because it helps readers find these sources again - and then read them! It's in our interest as dancers and dance historians (if not wikipedians) to spread knowledge of swing dances, and this would help. PlainJane 13:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Subheadings to deal with issues of cultural/social specificity and context

I have also added an extra subheading - I think it's worth discussing the history of blues dancing in African American communities in one section (in fact, I think it's really, really important - essential - to emphasise the black history of these dances. It infuriates me that many of these dances are read as 'white' dances with their black history neglected), adding a section on blues dancing in African American communities today (does anyone know anything about that? I certainly don't). It's important to use African American rather than black in these discussions as 'black' means something different depending on whether you're blues dancing in London, in Singapore, New Zealand, Australia or America. We are discussing an African American verncular dance, and we should make it clear that this is where the dance's history lies - within an African diaspora, and more specifically, within an African American diaspora.

We should also have a section on blues dancing in the post-revival lindy hop communities - I imagine that this might be a different culture than that of African American communties (seeing as how most American lindy hoppers are white teenagers and students in their 20s!.

And if it exists, the rise of a distinct revivalist blues dancing tradition in America - do people come to revivalist blues dancing today without going through lindy hop? That's not the case in Singapore, Japan, Korea, the UK and much of Europe. PlainJane 13:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Information that would strengthen this article

At this point this article does not discuss regional differences in blues dancing and music in the pre swing dance revival era. It would be really useful to have discussions of: - where people did blues dancing (ie what were the buildings like?) - examples of the music they danced to (particular musicians, the role of bands and record players, etc) - what sort of people did blues dances (was it a teenager thing? were there kids at blues dancing venues? did these factors vary across communities - eg was it ok for kids to be at blues dancing events in New York but inappropriate in Kansas City?), etc.

Is there a relationship with Juke joints that should be explored?

Were there slave dances from which specific blues steps or dances are descended, and how does this slavery affect the way blues dancing is/was regarded (eg there were some slave dances which were taboo for white eyes or for people who were not members of the community - Tommy DeFrantz disusses some interesting examples in his work)?PlainJane 13:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It'd be really great to flesh out the different historical/traditional/authentic blues dance forms in this article, listing specific names and brief descriptions of each. We're also lacking a discussion of solo blues dancing.PlainJane 02:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You have added a bunch of information that needs to be cited/sourced. Some of it I don't dispute, but at least one source should be named for those who want to grow their knowledge... others I do dispute and if we are going to "play nice" I'll give you a chance to go through and add citation yourself before I mark it up as [need citation].

"Popularity" of Blues did not crest in the 20's though I also have some books that indicate as much but various music industry charts showing top ten lists show songs that fall within the Blues idiom placing highly and sales figure support the idea that Blues was selling more records in the 40's and 50's than it was in the 20's... what is different is the lack of focus as the sole form of popular music for Blacks.

I've already addressed the term Black versus African American... The term is not one I like nor agree with, and there is more than enough academic and social-anthro, not to mention common media that references Black.

How will we address the issue anecdotal evidence? There is so little material published about these issues, a formal 'citation' isn't possible. Yet it would be difficult to 'disprove' many of these points. Constructive suggestions welcome!

There's a discussion of the term 'African American' and its use on the African American entry which you might find interesting. PlainJane 01:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

As you can tell from the discussion in that article there is very little concensus here in the States on what "African-American" means. There is little dispute about Black refering both to ones ancestory being African and the sub-culture of those of various Black ethnicities mingling in America and combining with European traditions.

Jook Joints like Rent Parties and After Hours Clubs had alot to do with the formation and development of Blues dances. Jookin' is an excellent book to give you some insights into the culture of social dance in rural Black areas. This artilce could be expanded to gigantic proportions, but I really don't have as much time as that would take. I mean just going through my library of books and notes of interviews etc. to discuss anyone aspect in more detail would definitely be months of work. Unless someone is going to be giving me a grant to do so, it is just not overly realistic.

As to how we should handle some of this info that is either original research or oral tradition... I'm not sure. I'm firmly set on the idea that the article discuss dancing that is within the original tradition as being Blues dance(s). I also believe that dances that don't fit within this tradition should either have their own section that refers to dances done to Blues music or left out of this article entirely.

I have no problem with the inclusion of Oral material being included provided that it supports written works, or is not found to be contradictory by the people who read it... and that conclusions based on this information are not included... but even that is probably crossing the line toomuch. What are your thoughts?

I'm hoping to get some of the other big name dancers who have been researching and teaching these dances to add to the material... though most of them seem to hold wikipedia at a hands distance... and the earlier inclusions in this article I'd say easily demonstrate why.

[edit] ooops

Sorry about that changing of book titles... it was completely accidental, I thought I had made the proper change back and apparently I lost my connection. Not trying to be P.I.A. I had gone through to change references of culture to Black, and leave references to ethnicity Adrican-American, but I wasn't as careful with my word replacement as I should have been. Mia cupla.

[edit] Understanding the context

The article is specifically about Blues Dancing. While a certain amount of inclusion of things intimately tied or confused with Blues dance makes sense, using sheet music as an indication of what a dance was originally danced to because of name association is flawed. The vernacular dances predate sheet music which calls for the dances, not the Tin-Pan Alley form of creating Sheet Music in hopes of spawning a dance craze.

Any serious studying of Black music and Black dance will reveal dances that became associated with Ragtime music originated in quarters were the predmoninant music was not ragtime but often predates ragtime. Cakewalk for example which you site as being a ragtime dance (a music which started surging in popularity in the early 1890's and not being written until the mid 1890's) while the dance itself came out in the South amongst slaves in the 1850's. IT is more proper to refer to the Cakewalk as one of the roots of blues dance rather than a blues dance itself. The Slow Drag is very similar in that it's originas do not lie with Ragtime music, but with the rural music of the Southern Blacks the Blues which W.C. Handy reported hearing as early as 1892. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.70.156.69 (talk) 14:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Please read the article on Slow Drag. Please list your reference that the Slow Drag was danced to blues before it was danced to ragtime, as the references indicate. Cakewalk was not a "ragtime dance". Rather, it was a dance that was done to ragtime music. "Snake Hips, another "Dance" that is also often labeled a "blues dance" goes back to plantation times. Earl Snake Hips Tucker didn't create the dance in Harlem in the 1920s. He popularized it. These "Dances" that have been associated with "blues" have been used to dance to music that has changed, including ragtime and jazz, and changed again. Or, in the case of dancing them to rock n roll, such a watusi. They are not specifically associated with blues, other than in the minds of those who don't know, or haven't bothered to find out the history of the dances. Ignoring the history of the dances does a disservice to anyone who comes to Wikipedia for information. I will be providing a reference that states that "African" dance movements have in fact been used over and over again to different music.

I do not accept the argument that the history of a dance is "out of context" just because it inconvientiently was danced to some other kind of music.

A stated above - "Any serious studying of Black music and Black dance will reveal dances that became associated with Ragtime music originated in quarters were the predmoninant music was not ragtime but often predates ragtime." Again, when you find references to these dances being done to pre ragtime music, and, incidently, pre blues music, please list them in the article. While we wait for that "serious study", I have been supplying references from books written by "serious" researchers, most of which have been expunged from this article. Apparently, anything that contradicts the preconceived notion that the cited dances are "blues dance" is not welcome here.

Steve Pastor (talk) 18:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Handy, blues, and 1892

I am unable to confirm the 1892 date for the Handy report that you mention. Handy left Florence, Alamaba in 1892, but moved to Birmingham. Perhaps you mean 1903 in Tutwiler, Miss? Or maybe Ma Rainey in 1902? Both of their desriptions were pretty vague. "At the pipe works in Bessemer, for example, back in '92 and '93 the dusky huskies had one that went like this:" lyrics that have nothing to do with St Loius follow P 140 "On the levee at St. louis I had heard Looking for the Bully sung by roustabouts" p 118 Robert Palmer in Deep Blues writes, "He had heard the East St Louis Blues and other jump-ups and one-verse songs as early as 1892." I see that someone has added all of this together to come up with the info written here. But that would be wrong. What this means is that Handy's report of "the weirdest music I had ever heard" (blues?) was a decade later than written here. Perhaps you can tell me where in Handy's autobiography I can find that reference.? Steve Pastor (talk) 17:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's an update, but it substantiates Robert Palmer's account. "While sleeping on cobblestones in St Louis ('92) I heard shabby guitarists picking out a tune called East ST Louis. It had numerous one-line verses and they would sing it all night." page 142 of his autobiography. Still, not blues in 1892. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)