Talk:Black January

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I have added this page on my watch list, and will revert any attempt to act like the in progress pogroms of Armenians is some unimportant footnote. I warn you NOW I will NOT be discriminating about whatever edits are made after an attempt to erase this information and its position, I will revert back to the last version where it is intact. If you want to make a change to that basic information, we can discuss it here. Changes of the type Grandmaster made are fine of course, but eliminating it from the start of the article is not acceptable, and is POV. I would appreciate any assistance from Azeris, Armenians and Chinese alike in helping to keep this in the article, where it belongs. --RaffiKojian 03:53, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Raffi, the numerous army units, including Baku garrison and other forces, Caspian flotilla, two military schools, the students of which were normally used to keep order, plus 12 000 strong MVD troops were more than enough to restore law and order. Instead, they preferred not to act, claiming they had no orders. The reason apparently was that Popular Front was going to come to power after the elections, scheduled to February, so the communist authorities needed a reason to suppress Popular Front. That’s probably why the pogroms were organized, and that’s why militaries waited for one week before taking measures. The real intent of the military operation was to keep the Communist Party on power, which was confirmed by Dmitry Yazov, who gave orders on military operation on 20 January. He confirmed that in an interview to Izvestia newspaper:

26.01.1990 Д.Т.Язов в интервью "Известиям" заявил, что цель армии в Баку состояла в том, чтобы разбить структуры захвата власти, имевшие ответвления "повсюду" [1]

D.T.Yazov stated in an interview to Izvestia newspaper, that the goal of army in Baku was the destruction of the structures of seizure of power, which had their branches “everywhere”.

No mention of Armenians. Grandmaster 08:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

This was a crazy time, Grandmaster, so it is not surprising if indecision and preparation took a week. They couldn't decide what to do with the Karabakh issue itself year after year. As usual, I am open to other viewpoints, but when we're talking about why there was an invasion, there are of course official reasons and (often) unofficial ones. Gorbachev himself would be the best source - what does his biography say about this? There are few non-Azeri sites on this matter (and I'm not sure who Yazov is), but the Library of Congress clearly states "Meanwhile, Azerbaijanis unleashed a wave of violence against Armenian residents of Baku and other population centers, causing turmoil that seemed to jeopardize ACP rule. In response, in January 1990 Moscow deployed forces of its Ministry of Internal Affairs (Ministerstvo vnutrennikh del--MVD), Committee for State Security (Komitet gosudarstvennoi bezopasnosti--KGB), and the military in a brutal suppression of these riots. Moscow also began a crackdown on the APF and other opposition forces in Baku and other cities, and Soviet forces cooperated with Iranian authorities to secure the Azerbaijani-Iranian border." [2] (if the bookmark doesn't work, go to http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/aztoc.html and click on "Demands for Sovereignty and the Soviet Reaction". So anyway, it seems there is a strong arguement for saying that the Armenian pogroms were a reason (or at least a pretext) for the invasion. --RaffiKojian 10:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Pogroms were a pretext, but not a real reason. Yazov was a minister of defense of the USSR at the time. Later he was one of the leaders of the coup against Gorbachov. Soviet authorities never cared about ordinary people, but they cared about communist party staying on power, so that’s apparently a reason why they waited for a week to have the highest number of casualties. That would be a good pretext to ban the anticommunist opposition. The pogroms were started by the refugees from Armenia, by that time the whole Azeri population of Armenia was expelled, and the refugees took the streets of Baku. Some forces directed their anger against Armenians, living in the city, and some say it was organized to prevent the fall of the Communist regime. Grandmaster 11:29, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, they may have been a pretext, though Library of Congress gives them as "the" reason. I also think that maintaining control was the main reason, but still, the pograms must have been important, since they definitely did not make Moscow or Baku look good. It seems they must have been a factor of some sort... --RaffiKojian 12:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I’m not saying that the pogroms were not an important factor, but they were not a decisive factor. The facts speak for themselves. Why did the Soviet authorities have to bring the troops from outside while they had more than enough forces within the city to restore law and order? And why all those troops took no measures to stop riots, while they could as early as 13 January? It appears that they waited until the situation got as bad as possible, to have a reason to ban the opposition. And Yazov himself explained why the troops stormed Baku, he said they did it to prevent opposition from coming to power. He was a soldier, not a politician, and he openly admitted the purpose of the military action. Grandmaster 15:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal interpretations have no relevancy in the article and are no reason for edits. Fad (ix) 17:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Mine or Yazov's? Grandmaster 04:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

soviet leader never cared about people of soviet union, they couldnt care less about death armenians or death azerbaijanis. they only wanted to proceed their control over resisting azerbaijan. azerbaijanis were already destroying iran border the year before and in 1990 they wanted independence, this got soviet leader shoked. and if azerbaijan became independent then all caucasian countries would follow. so soviet union wanted to proceed to maintain control over azerbaijan. also i dont know how its internationally but in azerbaijan that day, bloody january is also known as the bloody birth of azerbaijan republic, i think this page should include that - Karabakh

User:Karabakh - please sign your comments with the --~~~~ so that your name is AUTOMATICALLY linked to your user page and people can tell that user Karabakh wrote something, rather than an anonymous user randomly said the word Karabakh at the end of their comment. Also, please do NOT remove information about Armenians without discussion (and not even mention it in your edit summaries!). You must know this is sensitive and should be discussed. It is currently still being discussed. GRANDMASTER - I agree that Yazov would be more likely to know the truth, but LOC would be more likely to say the truth... you know what I mean? But in any event, as I said, I think it likely the invasion was for just what he said, but that the pretext was the Armenian thing... --RaffiKojian 12:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

This article needs work in the beginning of the text. It should be explained that by January 1990 the whole Azeri population of Armenia was expelled and many of them sought refuge in Baku, living virtually in the streets of the city. Local police did not even have pistols, because all local police forces in the region were disarmed by Soviet authorities to prevent them from participating in ethnic clashes. It should also be said that while pogroms of Armenians were used as a pretext for the intervention, the real goal was preventing the fall of the communist regime. I’ll do that later. Grandmaster 13:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

GM - Please make sure to use good sources - as it surprises me to hear that ALL the Azeris of Armenia were already in Azerbaijan by that date. It also surprises me to hear police were unarmed (though the soldiers wouldn't have been), but that is quite interesting. --RaffiKojian 03:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I always use sources to back up my edits. And it’s really true about policemen, I think they disarmed police in both Armenia and Azerbaijan, because they started shooting each other on the borders. Instead, the Soviet authorities sent internal troops of MVD to the region to keep order and prevent ethnic clashes. They also confiscated all hunting rifles from the people. I will include this once I have a good source for it. Grandmaster 05:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Raffi, please have a look at this document by HRW, it’s called Playing the "Communal Card": Communal Violence and Human Rights, see section called Black January. It basically supports what I was saying:

While the government did not instigate these pogroms, central authorities, including the local militia and 12,000 Soviet Ministry of Interior troops in Baku, did little to stop the violence; they mostly occupied themselves with protecting Communist Party and government buildings. Various excuses were put forward to explain the inaction: the troops were not equipped to handle civil disorders; no orders were given; confusion in the chain of command. Some journalists pointed towards a conspiracy.

On the night of January 19, 1990, Soviet forces, under the authority of a state of emergency decree that would only be announced hours later, stormed Baku in an effort to crush the anti-Moscow Azerbaijani Popular Front and safeguard the rule of the Azerbaijani Communist Party. The Popular Front had taken de facto control in a number of Azerbaijani regions and was poised to win Supreme Soviet Elections scheduled for March 1990. While the Kremlin's ostensible reason for the military action was to safeguard the Armenian population, most evidence simply does not support this contention. For example, documents of the military procurator's office in Baku examined by Human Rights Watch/Helsinki indicate that the military action was being planned even before the January 13, 1990 pogroms. [3] Grandmaster 06:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

The edit as of now works for me! --RaffiKojian 13:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I had a history professor who also agreed with GM's thesis although he referred to it during the Sumgait pogrom, not Baku. Here's an article by TIME on the event so give it a read (if you don't have a subscription, I'll e-mail the article) [4].--MarshallBagramyan 01:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

In State of Emergency, in paragraph 2, it uses the term "Soviet Empire". While i have no problem with the idea that the U.S.S.R. was Imperialist, i would like to remind everyone that the official term is Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, or C.C.C.P., or Soviet union informally. Unless anyone objects, i will change it to Soviet union on Monday the 21. --Aristotle58 (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)Aristotle58 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aristotle58 (talk • contribs) 09:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] pictures

we need some pictures to be added to this page

Unfortunately, the image that I uploaded of Black January that is currently on this page - cannot be used because of a possible copyright violation. If you can, try to argue for a better fair use rationale, although it will be a bit tough since we are dealing with an image by the AP.

[edit] State of Emergency

Armenian political scientists acknowledge the fact that military force was used to prevent collapse of the USSR: Azerbaijan holds mourning events dedicated to the “hard times when the soviet troops entered Baku.” However they entered not to defend Armenians but to prevent collapse of the communist regime. Those victims Azerbaijan is speaking about were the people who wished to seize the power,” the political scientist underscored. From: http://www.yerkir.am/eng/?sub=news_arm&id=28580

This information should be corrected in the text. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.83.1.6 (talk) 13:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC).