Talk:Bicycle messenger

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Contents 1 Older comments 2 More editing 3 History 4 Intro text 5 NPOV 6 Follow the editing policy 7 Is it fair to allow commercial enterprises to put ads in the text or links? 8 Clean-up 9 Cleanup tags 10 Security 11 New photo, riding on pavement/sidewalk 12 Walking messengers 13 Working conditions - gross or net pay 14 Helmets and lights 15 Too many pictures?

[edit] Older comments

FearÉIREANN may be right, if we want another culture's perspective on the issue, would somebody please point a Chinese messenger to the wikipedia site? --thewalrus

You realise the Chinese have difficulty in viewing wikipedia? Mathmo ^Talk 15:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More editing

I edited this page for grammar, added some reference and whole bunch of other stuff. I tried to make the article more 'wikipedia', but I am not sure if I succeeded. Somehow, no matter what I do, I still find the piece dissatisfying. I welcome comments. Buffalo Bill, occasional London bicycle messenger & former Chair, London Bicycle Messenger Association, Editor, Moving Target, the London messenger 'ziiine 12:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I have now reorganised the external links into geographical areas for the BMAs, and alphabetised the Misc links. I removed all the non-messenger specific external links.

I added sub-headings for equipment, and some refs and wiki links therein.

I also removed one or two sentences that were either POV or not substantiated. I see that a lot of the refs that I have used are newspaper articles that have been reproduced on web-sites. I haven't used the correct citation format, I think. Can someone advise me?Buffalo Bill 08:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I moved this here

==Messengers worldwide== Although the idea of modern bicycle messengers is thought to have originated in North America, it has now spread throughout the developed world. The attraction of this service is that it provides a cheap and fast method of sending messages around an inner-city area with heavy traffic. The bicycle messenger is most common outside America in northern and eastern Europe, with large and organised bodies of couriers in such cities as London, Berlin, Copenhagen, Zurich, Warsaw, Budapest and Dublin, among others. In London motorcycle couriers are as common as bicycle couriers for historical reasons and most couriers services provide both motorbike and bicycle couriersCitation needed.

An annual European Cycle Messenger Championships (ECMC) is organized in a different city on the continent every year. Strangely, the concept has not become especially popular in southern Europe, the heartland of world competitive cycling. There are very few bicycle couriers in Portugal, France, Spain, or Italy.

Outside Europe, there are large bicycle messenger services in Japan—notably Tokyo—and also in New Zealand and Australia.

as it seems redundant now that the History section has been expanded.

Buffalo Bill 16:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

I am going to add more in the history section. Is there anyone that has stuff they could contribute? Buffalo Bill 08:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro text

Ok, i'm about to be bold and rewrite the introduction. The section about types of packages carried by bike messengers is untrue and gives an unrealistic impression of the service provided. the section on compensation is US-centric. and the general tone is POV. Frank duff 17:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC) (toronto bike messenger)

[edit] NPOV

This article needs serious NPOVing and de-americocentrising. FearÉIREANN 20:50, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I changed this page a little, but there's quite a lot to do.--Buffalo Bill, former London bicycle messenger & Chair, London Bicycle Messenger Association 18:58, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Follow the editing policy

First, a disclaimer: I think the Puck information was stupid.

Second, you should follow the editorial policy when making changes.

With large proposed deletions or replacements, it may be best to suggest changes in a discussion, lest the original author is discouraged from posting again. One person's improvement is another's desecration, and nobody likes to see their work destroyed without warning.

So, whatever you do, try to preserve information. Reasons for removing bits of an article include:

   * duplication
   * irrelevancy
   * patent nonsense
   * copyright violations
   * innaccuracy, or where the accuracy of the information cannot be established

Alternatives include:

   * rephrasing while keeping the content
   * moving text within an article or to another article (existing or new)
   * adding more of what you think is important to make an article more balanced

If, in your considered judgment, a page simply needs to be rewritten or changed substantially, go ahead and do that. But preserve any old contents you think might have some discussion value on the talk page, along with a comment about why you made the change. Even if you delete something that's just plain wrong, odds are that it got there because someone believed it was true, so preserve a comment that it is in fact wrong to inform later editors.

That said, here's what was deleted:

MTV's hit series The Real World: San Francisco was characterized by the presence of what some described as repulsive yet compelling bicycle messenger Puck; but Puck was really just an entertaining character who happened to have been a San Francisco bicycle messenger for a few months.

[edit] Is it fair to allow commercial enterprises to put ads in the text or links?

I just want to know. Personally, I am against it.

I took out an link to a London messenger company because it was not relevant, and can only been placed there by an eCourier employee or owner.

I have say that, in general, the content on this page reflects the personal outlooks of the contributors (track bikes, dubious assertions about which country had modern messengers first, plugs for documentaries) and serious lacks research - Nelson Vails, silver medallist at 1984 Olympics on the velodrome, was a NYC messenger, so the statement: "In recent years some particularly skilled messengers have taken an interest in racing track bicycles in velodromes, where they can shed their heavy bags and test their strength and bike-handling skills." is a little misleading

Buffalo Bill, occasional London bicycle messenger & former Chair, London Bicycle Messenger Association, Editor, Moving Target, the London messenger 'ziiine 01:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Hell no, I kicked a few more links to the curb, like bag companies (Reload) and people hawking their videos. This isn't a flea market, good job Bill, keep it up. I also expanded a short bit on mesengers outside of the "scene" and put fixed gear bikes in the proper perspective (a very) clear minority)

---

Yes, removing all links with even an inkling of being connected to business seems unnecessary. I can see that maybe some of the links were kicked for blatant commercialism and non relatedness, but maybe there's a way to have a space for external links that are both related and "commercial".

It is naive to believe that the culture created by messengers would be possible without commercial interests. The messengers job is to grease the wheels of capitalism, to deny that by removing pertinent links which may have something to do with business seems a bit overbearing.

The fact is that no matter how punk rock messengers believe themselves to be, we are the willing servants of banks, corporations, lawyers, title companies, architecture firms etc. I only say this to dispute the removal of links which I feel were important, links that have way less to do with commercial interests than the actual job of being a messenger. I know not one messenger who works for free. If messengers are willing to walk the line between serving the business world and participating in the vibrant counter-culture niche of the bike messenger, then perhaps the links should reflect that as well.

I have visited all of the links that have been removed. Some seemed very appropriately descriptive of the bike messenger industry and should be included in some way. I don't want to be involved in a link war, so those of you who have done all the real work to make this page as complete as it is, I rest my case.

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.22.162 (talk) 17:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I zapped most of the links in the 'external links' section. It had nearly 50 links and had become far too long, IMO, and was in breach of the wiki policy Wikipedia is not a directory

'Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed. Genealogical entries or phonebook entries. Wikipedia is not the white pages. Directories, directory entries, electronic program guide, or a resource for conducting business. For example, an article on a radio station generally should not list upcoming events, current promotions, phone numbers, current schedules, etc., although mention of major events, promotions or historically significant programme lists and schedules (such as the annual United States network television schedules) may be acceptable. Furthermore, the Talk pages associated with an article are for talking about the article, not for conducting the business of the topic of the article. Wikipedia is not the yellow pages.'

I therefore left in a link for the International Federation of Bicycle Messenger Association, which, although is slightly out of date, can be used to access nearly all the links that were removed, and many others. My reasons for removing the links were NOT predicated by a punk rock ethos. I do possess some music by punk rockers such as John Lydon, but equally I also own, and enjoy, some music by Beethoven and Abba. I totally accept that bicycle messengering is a commercial undertaking, with an important role to play in the modern world of business, and I believe that the article reflects that reality, more or less accurately. In fact, to me, that is part of the charm of bicycle messengering - that 19th century machine can still have a role to play in the digital world of the 21st century!

I also took the time to provide refs that link to messenger sites IN THE ARTICLE BODY. I believe that the article is more enyclopedic with the links removed. I would, however, be interested to learn which links you think should be included, whilst remaining in compliance with the policy outlined in WIKI:NOT

Buffalo Bill talk to me 09:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

Ok, this article is in real need of some work. I'm a veteran of several rewrites in communication topics and I'm willing to give this page a shot.

BUT

I got a feeling that this might rub some folks the wrong way if I do it cold; so here is what I propose:

A tight intro with with a complete description of the job itself as well as ALL the various names in English for the trade worked in, and where those names are common

The job, cultural icon status, fixed-gear bicycles issues, fashion and lifestyle aspects, the history and organisations, and the spots/competition topics need a separate section each. As it stands this is mixed together in a sort of Sunday supplement style of writing that has no place in an encyclopedia.

Other parts of the world with brief descriptions of similar services.

Some numbers from some major centers (if available) from three different dates (if possible) This last one's just gravy; if the stats can be found good, if not the article won't suffer much for not having them.

Comments? --DV8 2XL 01:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with the sections proposed DV8. I'm looking round at the moment for some stat numbers. I also believe a photo or two wouldn't hurt, and a revision of the links as discussed above. Breno 03:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Please do the above. Buffalo Bill, occasional London bicycle messenger & former Chair, London Bicycle Messenger Association, Editor, Moving Target, the London messenger 'ziiine

[edit] Cleanup tags

I put the inappropriate tone, references and npov tags on article. This page almost needs a new template that says "This article seems to glorify the topic." Terms like "anecdotally" don't belong here. Also, a lot of references are needed for the claims made. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 19:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have made a fairly significant rewrite in order to hopefully alleviate the tone and npov problems (and I have removed those tags). I have left the references tag because I did not add more than a few sources.

Changes include: adding a history section, although its empty; rewriting the intro section to have less of a whimsical tone and be more to the point (the original didn't even specifically say what bike messengers do); wording cleanup and additions to the equipment section; an attempt at improving the tone of the culture and media section, although without sources I'm sure some of it will still be objected to - its just stuff based on my experiences and things I believe to be self-evident (e.g. popularity of messenger bags in modern fashion).

I did not touch the external links nor messengering worldwide section. My Chinese teacher recently told me the messenger business is booming in China, when she found out what I do. Next time I see her I'll try to get some more detail from her if possible. catParade 00:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Security

The article mentions that a bike courier would carry a lock for their bike. But based on my experiences in Auckland this simply is not true. It is rare to see a bike being locked by a bike messenger (though of course commuters lock up their bikes). After my first day working I never even carried a lock on me. Is just a waste time and a wast of energy to carry a lock around. Of course somewhere else such as New York I wouldn't at all be surprised that it is totally different. Mathmo ^Talk 15:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's true that in some messenger cities bicycle theft is rare. However, in most large European or North American cities, bicycle theft is very common. The high premiums for bicycle theft insurance in the UK (typically £1 per £10 value) demonstrate this. A recent report estimated that one bicycle is stolen in the UK every 70 seconds. Buffalo Bill, occasional London bicycle messenger & former Chair, London Bicycle Messenger Association, Editor, Moving Target, the London messenger 'ziiine 07:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I got sick of looking at this ' For further security, some messengers are known to paint their bikes in ugly, clashing colors to make them less attractive to potential thieves.' so I took it out. In my experience, messengers might wrap their bikes in tape or rubber inner tubes, but rarely, if ever, re-paint their bikes to deter thieves.Buffalo Bill talk to me 06:56, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New photo, riding on pavement/sidewalk

Surely it can't that difficult to find or take a photo of a cycle courier actually riding on the road (the part for vehicle traffic) and not on the pavement/sidewalk (pedestrian area). LDHan 17:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Go on then! Buffalo Bill talk to me 04:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I found one. What do you think? Key to the city (talk) 00:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I preferred the old one - you could see the radio, the bag much clearer. But whatever. Buffalo Bill talk to me 10:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

True. But with this one you get more an impression of 'transportation'. Don't know how to say it. Someone else has an opinion on this? [1] or [2]? I don't want to be the only person deciding on this. Key to the city (talk) 11:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The only objection to the old one was that it showed a cyclist riding illegally on the pavement. But the picture was good quality, and having been cropped, it wasn't as obvious that the rider was in fact on the pavement/sidewalk. I think that if it is to be replaced, then the picture should be at least as good. The current replacement is not.Buffalo Bill talk to me 11:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

For a laugh, what about this one? [3] Buffalo Bill talk to me 12:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Haha. It is on the road, and it is a clear picture. I say go for it. Key to the city (talk) 12:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

It's copyright, but I know the photographer, so it can be done... Buffalo Bill talk to me 14:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

How about this [4]? Buffalo Bill talk to me 12:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry lad, link is broken. Key (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that one (working link here) would be good if it was cropped a bit closer. -SCEhardT 18:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

this one is excellent for me. Good depiction of 'transportation'. No copyrights? Key (talk) 18:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I have an email from the copyright holder releasing for CC non-com attrib. SCEhardt, if I upload it, will you do the rest? Buffalo Bill talk to me 18:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually I don't have access to the OTRS system - when you upload the file, pick the correct license and put the author's name as the source (use this link). Then send a copy of the email to permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org. However, note that Wikipedia can only use photos released for commercial use and allowing derivatives, which means we only accept cc-by, cc-sa, and cc-by-sa. -SCEhardT 03:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I know how to upload a file and pick the right license, I meant could you crop it. Buffalo Bill talk to me 09:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, sure, I'll be glad to crop it. -SCEhardT 15:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Lad? Buffalo Bill talk to me 18:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, I use the word 'lad' all the time... Don't mean anything by it. Is there a problem with that word? Key (talk) 18:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It's kind of a diminutive - sort of implies that you are older (which in Wikip I guess you are) than me. No problem!  :-) Buffalo Bill talk to me 19:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, didn't know that it's a diminutive. I spend a while in Scotland, that's where I picked it up, they called me a lad all the time :) Good that you told me though, could have gotten me into trouble. Key (talk) 16:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

 :-) [5] Buffalo Bill talk to me 18:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Walking messengers

This does not belong on the bicycle messenger entry!

--Walking Messengers-- An important subset of the messenger industry(at least in areas with proper mass transit)is the walking messenger. Walkers perform the same basic duties as bicycle messengers but instead of riding a bicycle they ride mass transit and/or walk with their cargo.

Buffalo Bill talk to me 16:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Working conditions - gross or net pay

Taken from the publication used for information on earnings:

One in six of Cardiff messengers were women, the average age of messengers was twenty six years old and the average daily

wage for messengering in Cardiff in 2004 was about £45.

One in four of the messengers surveyed in London were

women, the average age of those surveyed was twenty eight years old and the average daily wage for messengering in London in 2004 was about £65.

As can be seen, there is no indication that the survey figures are gross or net. I therefore reverted the edit referring to:

'A 2006 study stated that the average daily wage (before any deductions for income tax or national insurance contribution) of London bicycle messengers was £65 a day, and that of bicycle messenger in Cardiff was £45.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buffalo Bill (talk • contribs) 15:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Helmets and lights

Removed this

Some jurisdictions require the use of helmets and/or illumination equipment (i.e. head and tail lights) in low-light conditions.^[1]

Do all cyclists have to comply with this? If so, not relevant in the messenger section. If not, better citation required.Buffalo Bill talk to me 22:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Too many pictures?

I think this article now has too many pictures, some of which are of little relevance to the topic.Buffalo Bill talk to me 05:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, if all the pictures were relevant, I don't think there would be too many. But I think that Image:Asmussen fixed gear London 2007.jpg could certainly be removed. Any luck with getting a free license for this photo? -SCEhardT 06:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The other pics of bikes without riders should go too. No luck with the license, the guy is happy for it to be used, but I can't get him to _actually_ release the rights in a way that would satisfy wikipedia.Buffalo Bill talk to me 10:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that the riderless bike photos are helpful to the parts of the article they're in. Image:Shorter 1980s bicycle.jpg shows an example of an actual non-stereotypical messenger bike while Image:Fluorescent-bike-099.JPG illustrates the stereotype (fashion) for those who aren't familiar with it. -SCEhardT 15:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I hope the stereotype is worth illustrating. This is a bit extreme but there are a lot of interesting bikes in London, these coloured rims are a bit of a craze. What about the fashion aspect - it is certainly noticed, but where is the influence seen? Not on commuter cyclists, I work in an office full of them and they all like hybrids and sensible cycling gear. I'm not so sure it extends beyond messenger circles. Any views on this?

The article could really use some decent pictures of riders in a normal working situation. ProfDEH (talk) 14:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

When the amount of images start to have a bad effect on the layout of the text, then there are definitely too many. This is what the manual of style suggests: Use the link to more images on Commons, wherever possible. If there are too many images in a given article, a link to the Commons is a good solution. People in need of more than a couple illustrations from this topic should go to the commons page anyway. Key (talk) 11:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I've scoured Commons and Flickr and there is a distinct shortage of courier images on a suitable licence. I might go out with a telephoto lens I guess. ProfDEH (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)