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Talk:Betrayal of the Cossacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk:Betrayal of the Cossacks

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 Betrayal of the Cossacks was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: September 27, 2007
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
This is a controversial topic that may be under dispute. Please read this page and discuss substantial changes here before making them.
Make sure to supply full citations when adding information and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information.

Contents

[edit] This article is already neutral and fair - read the research and see for yourself

The relevant research has been comprehensively undertaken by Count Nikolai Tolstoy-Miloslavksy, a descendant of Count Lev Tolstoy, the famous writer.

Count Tolstoy's research is painstaking and meticulous and cites all sources very extensively and fully, taking them from government files in the West and now from the Soviet Union files. No-one has written a satisfactory rebuttal of his research nor, indeed, any rebuttal at all.

The Libel action brought by Lord Aldington in 1989 against Count Tolstoy and Mr Watts concerned a pamphlet circulated by Mr Watts and did not relate to any of Count Tolstoy's books which have never - repeat never - been challenged in the courts.

It is quite clear that the Cossacks were, indeed, betrayed and that largely by officials of the British government, particularly some in the Foreign Office. It is also quite clear that the Foreign Office illegally ordered the return to the Soviet Union of a very large number of Cossack and other emigres, knowing that they would be shot or imprisoned but also knowing that this would partially appease Stalin. British Special Forces units were tasked with the hand-over and witnessed many Cossacks and emigres being shot by the NKVD.

It is probable that this may have been a secret arrangement concluded at or after Yalta by Soviet-friendly officials in the British government, since British officialdom was, at that time, heavily infiltrated by fellow-travellers and others sympathetic to the Soviet Union, like the spies and traitors, Burgess, Philby and McLean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.45.151 (talk • contribs)

These men were serving the enemy of their own state during war. Women and children were non-combatants, but they were Soviet citizens. I fail to see how handing them over to their own state can be considered illegal. On the other hand, according to the laws of virtually any country at the time, defecting to the enemy and fighting against your own state was treason, and punishable by death. The facts may be accurate, but the whole slant of the article, starting with the title, is one of the most POV I have ever seen. Glad it did not make a good article. I'll consider renaming it to something like "Fate of Cossack Soviet Citizens Serving the Enemy in WWII". 212.216.210.234 07:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I strongly oppose naming it "Fate of Cossack Soviet Citizens Serving the Enemy in WWII". For one the title is confusing and misleading. It implies that all of the Cossacks and other ethnic Russians that were "repatriated" were Soviet Citizens, which many were not according to most, if not all, historians. Many left before the Russian Revolution and were never Soviet citizens. Secondly, the phrase "Serving the Enemy" is confusing. Whose enemy, the Soviets' enemy? (that could be the U.S.) the Allies' enemy? (that could be Japan?) In this situation you have to look at it from a different view than Axis vs. Allies because the Cossacks that fought against the Soviet Union did not consider themselves as part of the Axis. They did not consider the United States, Great Britain, Canada, and other Allied powers their enemies. I think if this title is seriously going to be changed, it would need to be something similar to "Cossack Repatriations of World War II". ~ Joe Jklin (T C) 12:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I frankly doubt that most of the Cossacks were not Soviet citizens, and would like to see these "most historians" stating that. We're talking about many thousands of persons. Maybe a handful of the officers had lived for twenty years in France and other countries, certainly not the bulk of the men. As to who is the enemy, it is not as ambiguous as you think. It's the enemy of their state, pretty much straightforward. Their state was at war with Germany, they served Germany, they served the enemy. That also applies to the other distinctions you make; when one takes orders from Germany in WWII, it's quite pointless that he considers himself "not at war" with Germany's enemies, such as the United States etc. It's a war and there is no halfway point. I suppose it's possible the British volunteers who served in the SS might have not considered themselves at war with their own country, but only with the USSR, for instance; they were still objectively serving the enemy. Having said that, yes, Cossack Repatrations would still be much much better than the current POV title. 212.216.210.221 13:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


Here is good reference to most historians stating that most of the Cossacks were not Soviet citizens JSTOR. It is a review of two works about the forced repatriations or "Operation Keelhaul". One work is "Operation Keelhaul: The Story of Forced Repatriation from 1944 to the Present. by Julius Epstein, Bertram D. Wolfe" Julius Epstein is considered a leading authority on the subject. The other work is "The Last Secret: The Delivery to Stalin of over Two Million Russians by Britain and the United States. by Nicholas Bethell, Hugh Trevor-Roper". There are many other references to this fact by historians, politicians, and authors. If many of these people were not Soviet citizens then the enemy question becomes more ambiguous. The Soviet Union was not there state so they could be at war with any number of people. I am still seeking out a title that is completely NPOV but am having trouble. As is stated below, Cossack Repatriations implies that they were Soviet citizens, which we have discussed. Lienz cossacks has been considered but it makes it seem as though Lienz was their host. So I am trying to find some scholarly articles using neutral names but it is tough as the author is usually slanted one way. If you were curious, I named the article because that is the name of the famous painting of the event in Lienz and is therefore what I grew up knowing it as.~ Joe Jklin (T C) 15:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that. That fact alone should tell you how absurdly steeped in POV the title and the article are. It's like writing an article about the Nazi party and titling it "Triumph of the Will". Propaganda art seldom is NPOV. But maybe you are too emotionally involved to write a NPOV article about this subject.212.216.211.250 08:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Although to me a cossack, this is a touching piece, I must urge for it to be NPOVed. You must remember that at the same time hunderds of thousands of ethnic Cossacks fought for the Red Army against the nazis whether being in Cossack regiments or in others, and the tone that this article sets for how our motherland is portrayed is unacceptable and if I was more skeptical I would have given this article a thorough filtering. However since it is unfinished, I shall wait for a while and urge the author to NPOV and expand the section... The whole of my family fought for my motherland in Cossack regiments. --Kuban kazak 16:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The article needs a new title or should be merged with Operation Keelhaul article. Fisenko 17:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

This article definitely needs a new title because the word 'betrayal' is strongly pov. --Tomato 02:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this article needs some more NPOVing but am finding it difficult to do myself because of my personal feelings towards these events. It definetly needs a new title but I can't think of one. It could be merged with Operation Keelhaul as they are essentially the same thing but from different POV (one from a British, the other from a Soviet refugee). I thought of adding something about the Red Army but didn't think it should be added to this article because it was dealing solely with those Cossacks that fought for the White Army, as they were the ones that were handed over. --Jklin 05:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

White army and Red army in sense of the Russian civil war? Then that is rather irrelevant, except for those people who fought twice against the Soviet Union. Now I am talking about those Cossacks who, once their land has been occupied made the choice of collaborating. This article should clearly mention that they only compromised a minority, that most Cossacks fought for the Red Army (athough the majority did not fight in Cossack regiments, that is true). Finally it should also mention the 1950s pardon of the Soviet Govenment.--Kuban Cossack 09:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not Soviet citizens?

Having read Pyotr Krasnov I suggest the assertion here that he was never a Soviet citizen is incorrect. He was taken prisoner during the Kerensky-Junker plot and was then released after promising "never to do it again". A promise he broke almost immediately.

On the other hand, the Shkuro case is different. As I suppose will be the case with many others.

Many of these people committed heinous war crimes, not necessarily in the Soviet Union (Yugoslavia comes to mind, and the Warsaw Uprising). Which does not mean that one crime deserves another, but puts things into perspective. --pgp 12:23, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The POV! It's Blinding!

Pretty POV. Still, it covers an interesting aspect of the policy of forced soviet repatriation in the aftermath of the second world war. I'd recomend deleting the sensationlist parts, citing sources carefully, and using hard numbers rather than generalizations. I'll try to launch into a little bit of cleanup, but I suspect the big cleanup guns are going to have to come from our cyrillic reading wikipedians who have more plentiful access to specific sources.

--Irongaard 02:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the POV is blinding.212.216.211.250 08:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cossacks fighting for freedom

It deserves the highest respect to fight for your fatherland. But the Cossacks who were fighting in two wars for their freedom to live in peace in a free Cosakia without oppression and persecution are deserving the same respect. They have not left their homeland to fight for the Third Reich or Hitler. No, they were looking for freedom to lieve in peace in their home country. That they have chosen twice the loser side is the most tragic episode of the Cossack history. --Bargen 11:33, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

If over one million people of Soviet nationality served with or in the German army one can't speak of a minority. In March 1943 they were numbering already apprx. 430.000 men which joined the German army voluntary. A great part of them were Cossacks. To be read in "Cossacks in the German army" 1991 by Samuel J. Newland, U.S. Army War College:

"When the German 14th Panzer Corps moved into the vicinity of the River Mius, during mid-October 1941, they were surprised to find an engagement in progress behind the Red Army's front line. They found not German troops but a Russian militia unit had attacked the Soviet Army from the rear. The militia group was commanded by 1st Lietenant Nicholas Nazarenko, a Don Cossack..(p.90). On August 22, 1941, with the war only two month old, the entire 436 Soviet Regiment defected to the Germans. The defection was led by Major Ivan Nikitch Kononov, a Don Cossack...(p.92). Kononow was later commanding as Colonel the Plastunbrigade in the XV.-Cossack-Cavallery-Korps in the Wehrmacht. Not to forget about General Vlassov with his Army of Liberation. All this facts needs to be considered when as suggested the article needs "thourough filtering" and NPOV.--Bargen 12:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Voluntary...well the bulk of the collaborators were Vlasovites, Soviet POWs faced with either to die (since Holocaust was not really limited to the Jews, and Soviet POWs were not treated any more humane then they were) or to join the ROA, or wait and be faced with a question: "Why are you not dead?" by the NKVD. Cossacks read the article 50,000. ... As for the 436th regiment...well if you follow the Soviet order of battle then a regiment can number between 500 up 2000 men depending on what the regiment is. Still quite far away from 430 000. Then if you include Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian and other nationalist collaborators, those did join voluntary then that is a believable figure... until then please do not feed BS by some random author who lived on a different continet.--Kuban Cossack 14:53, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Wrong, the bulk were Soviet origin. In the "XV. Cossack Cavalery Corps" apprx. 25.000 Cossacks were serving. Wlassow's so called Army of Liberation only came in action in February 1945 and changed side again already beginning of May in Praque.
Prague not Praque, and 25 000 is nowhere near 430 000... Which preatty matches the Soviet figures and our Cossack ones. You are forgetting however about the nearlly millions of Cossack descendents who took arms for their motherland and fought in ALL military branches of the Worker Peasent Red Army and Red Fleet. --Kuban Cossack 14:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

By the way Samuel J. Newland is a member of the US Army War College teaching faculty and the Academic Officer for the Department of Corresponding studies. You should read his book on the Cossacks. --Bargen 09:56, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes...US Army, what makes him an expert--Kuban Cossack 14:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Kuban, perhaps displaying a bit of respect for non-Soviet sources would be appropriate. Jtpaladin 01:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Title proposal

Since it seems to be agreed that this article needs a new title, how about Cossacks after WWII. Most of this information could be transferred there and more information about cossacks that fought for the allies could be added. This would also get rid of the POV title and give an opportunity to further NPOV the article in the move.--Joe Jklin (T C) 04:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Cossacks after WWII is a direct insult to millions of Cossack descendents who fought in the Red Army ranks. This article deals with a single group of those people and should be mentioned. I propose that it be moved to Lienz Cossacks, as that is directely relevant title and has been applied several times in English--Kuban Cossack 09:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
It looks like the word 'betrayal' comes from Tolstoy's book and thus it can't be considered an accepted scholarly name of these events. Other possible variants are "Post-WW2 Cossack repatriations", "Lienz Cossack repatriation", "Post-WW2 Cossack transfer" and "Lienz Cossack transfer". Alæxis¿question? 11:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
That is why I mentioned that information about cossacks that fought for the allies (which includes the Red Army) would need to be included in the article. Currently the only mention that I can find of cossacks after or during WWII is here. I just think it's a chance to mention the cossack's parts on both sides of WWII--Joe Jklin (T C) 18:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
How about "Forced return of Cossacks after WWII"? "Forced repatriation of Cossacks after WWII" might be clearer, but would tend to imply that they were all Soviet citizens. Jbhood 07:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

As you can see, this was a difficult article to name when I created it. I took the title from the painting by S.G.Korolkoff for those that are wondering. While the title does appear to be POV it has been used by others, including Andrew Roberts and Colonel Chessernoff. I don't like "Lienz Cossacks" or similar titles because that implies that they were from a Lienz host or something when in actuality they were Don Cossacks and Kuban Cossacks. I'll keep looking for scholarly titles.~ Joe Jklin (T C) 13:10, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] move to Operation Keelhaul?

Maybe this should be moved to operation keelhaul, just under the sub title of "Cossacks."

Strong Oppose as the Cossack story is far greater than the story of Operation Keelhaul. Also this article is still fairly POV on what is a very sensitive subject. Rgds, - Trident13 11:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I consider that this article should be merged with "Operation Keelhaul" and the resulting article should be rewritten in a more NPOV style. The main problem is to determine exactly what was the scope of Operation Keelhaul. Was it just forcible repatriation of cossacks of XVth Cossack Cavalry Corps who in May 1945 were in a camp near Lienz or was it forcible repatriation of all Soviet (and Yugoslav) citizens from Western Germany ans Austria?

It seems to me that the former is true. Then the resulting article should be rewritten accordingly and, probably, another article "Forcible Repatriation of Soviet and Yugoslav Citizens in 1945" should be created. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Olegwiki (talk • contribs) 12:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually it was all ethnic Russians that were repatriated, including women, children, and elderly.~ Joe Jklin (T C)

17:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AndyZ peerreviewer

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, ~ Joe Jklin (T C) 22:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with location

This seems inconsistent with the article on Andrey Vlaslov which does not indicate that he was ever in the United States.

[edit] Other locations

[edit] Fort Dix, New Jersey, United States

While this event is often viewed as occurring only on European soil, it also occurred across the Atlantic Ocean at Fort Dix, New Jersey. Andrey Vlasov, a man who repeatedly voiced objections against Nazism and communism, was one of the men captured by American forces. His conversation with his American captor was described by Sven Steenberg in his book "Wlassow - Verräter oder Patriot?"

He began to speak, at first slowly and dispassionately, but then with growing intensity. For one last time, he spoke of all the prospects, hopes, and disappointments of his countrymen. He summed up everything for which countless Russians had fought and suffered. It was no longer really to the American that he was addressing himself — this was rather a confession, a review of his life, a last protest against the destiny that had brought him to a wretched end. . . . Vlasov stated that the leaders of the ROA were ready to appear before an international court, but that it would be a monumental injustice to turn them over to the Soviets and thereby to certain death. It was not a question of volunteers who had served the Germans, but of a political organization, of a broad opposition movement which, in any event, should not be dealt with under military law.

Andrey Vlasov was hanged August 2, 1946 for "treason as well as active espionage and terrorist activity against the Soviet Union."[1]

Roadrunner 03:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


The reference at the end of the section states - Some of this dirty work even took place on American soil. Epstein describes what happened to Russian POWs who were imprisoned at Fort Dix, New Jersey:

First, they refused to leave their barracks when ordered to do so...

Andrey Vlasov — the man who hated communism — the man who hated Nazism — carefully explained his position and reasoning to the American generals.

So it seems as though he might have been there, I do not know personally. However, Russian POWs were held at Fort Dix, New Jersey so the section should stay (which I'll add back) the Vlasov issue should be looked further into though.--Iosef U T C 14:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

Its been there for ages, I see no reason for continuing to hold it... the controversy tag on the talk page is sufficient IMO...--Kuban Cossack 12:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remove Fort Dix again

According to the Vlasov article and every work that I know of, Vlasov was never in the United States. He was held by the Americans in Europe.

Roadrunner 21:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of September 28, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Alongside a general need to review the article per the Manual of Style, the introduction is not a concise overview of the entire article. Things such as the simple statistics need to be included, mostly as part of asserting the notability of the event in an obvious way. The article in general does a poor job of stating the obvious, and needs better transitions between paragraphs and topics.
2. Factually accurate?: The article has a common problem, which is that it has a basic modicum of good sources but suffers from proper inline citations to those sources. A cite at the end of each paragraph and for quotations is the bare minimum. Citations to any fact likely to be challenged (see WP:V) is desirable, especially for a "good article". Every section now present in the article requires more thorough citations.
3. Broad in coverage?: The article would seem to cover all of the major points of interest in a focused way. The Aftermath section could do with some expansion however.
4. Neutral point of view?: This is most egregious violation of the quick-fail criteria in the article. Without solid references verifying that the incident is called the "Betrayal of the Cossacks" by a clear-cut majority of significant published sources, it is a clearly non-neutral thing to call the incident a betrayal. I'm not suggesting that this is necessarily impossible or untrue, but without proper attribution it is not kosher. I suggest that if no sources verifying this are provided, then the article be renamed to "Status of the Cossacks following World War II" or the like. This states a little more clearly the "what" and "when" of the event, without making a moral judgment. Other areas where there is also obviously non-neutral treatment are rampant in the introduction and body of the article. Attribution of statements which are similar to "...many innocent people -- ones who never fought against the Allies -- were handed over as well." might result in a more acceptable article, though toning down the partisan language is still necessary.
5. Article stability? Not the subject of any major on-going conflicts.
6. Images?: Present and accounted for with proper licenses and fair-use rationales.

As the article meets one or more of the quick-fail criteria, I have failed it without a hold period for minor improvements.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a Good article reassessment. Thank you for your work so far. — VanTucky Talk 00:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with some points. I just tried to remove labeling all Cossacks as "pro-Nazi" in this article per WP:NPOV, but user Kuban Cosak reverted all my edits at once. It is very unusual that someone who claims to be a Cossack himself wants to describe Cossacks as "pro-Nazi".Biophys (talk) 20:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] It was not only Lienz

Cossacs were also in Carinthia (Oderdrauburg), like von Pannwitz himself, in smaller villages such as Tristach, Amlach and Lavant. -Phips 00:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


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