Talk:Bengali language

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Talk archive 1 Time Immemorial-July 2006

Contents 1 Geographically the most Eastern? 2 Ranking of Bengali in the world's languages 3 Bangla sopken in the Middle East 4 Good Article Nom 5 vs. Bengali Grammar article 6 FA Drive? 7 Discuss 8 Regional variations 9 Edit summaries 10 Map, Sound sample 10.1 Northern West Bengal, Chittagong hill tracts 11 Regional usage 12 Second largest in India? 13 Pronunciation 14 Congratulations 15 320 million? 16 pie chart 17 Blanking of citation 18 Writing System 19 Vocabulary 20 tatsama 21 Rank of Bengali in World Languages: ignatius.edu is not WP:RS; 21 Feb in lead 22 Added dubious tag - 230 mil speakers 23 Comment from blogsd 24 Bangla or Bengali 25 International Mother Language Day 26 Additional Source

[edit] Geographically the most Eastern?

Along with Assamese, it is geographically the most eastern of the Indo-European languages. Wouldn't Assamese and Bishnupriya Manipuri be the most Eastern? Even If BPM is not actually a language at least the whole thing should be mentioned? Maquahuitl

[edit] Ranking of Bengali in the world's languages

Comparing the stated ranking of Bengali here and that on the page List of languages by number of native speakers I found a discrepancy. What is the truth? Would someone correct the discrepancy please? --JorisvS 21:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

See [1] this link from SIL. Thanks. --Ragib 23:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure the Ethnologue source is reliable, since for example it gives the number of Portuguese speakers as 170M, which is less than the population of Brazil, an entirely Portuguese-speaking country. In any case it's undesirable to have Wikipedia articles completely disagreeing with each other, so I'm changing the ranking to "between 4 and 7" until this can be resolved, ideally at Talk:List of languages by number of native speakers. Lfh 20:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Ethnologue is generally considered a good source for ranking. If there is a better source, please feel free to mention it here. Thanks. --Ragib 20:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm by no means an expert, I'm just trying to resolve the inconsistency between articles. The sources used by the list are the CIA and the World Almanac, but if you think the Ethnologue data are better - which they may be - you might want to include them on the list. Lfh 22:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

From IQBAL50000: Hello Friends, I just want to say something: As far as I'm aware the second most widely spoken language of India is Bengali, after Hindi. I am 99% sure it's not Telegu. Telegu is the third most widely spoken language of India, after Hindi and Bengali. I can provide you with ample amount of explicitly clear confirmations of the accuracy of what I stated here -i.e. Please read the following web links:-

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/profiles/India.pdf -(please read whole of final paragraph of page 7)

http://www.w3cindia.in/2006/08/Talks/e-GOV-Sts-LLT.ppt -(please see table on page 5)

http://lands.let.kun.nl/literature/heuvel.2004.2.pdf -(please read the third paragraph of section 3.2, which is on page 3)

'India: ECONOMY' http://www.mongabay.com/reference/new_profiles/250in.html -(please read second paragraph of the 'Languages' section of this article)

Also, Bengali is ranked as the 6th most widely spoken language in the world (in terms of mother tongue), - Please see the following link of a very reliable and up to date website: 'CIA - The World Factbook -- World ' https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html -(please scroll down and read the "Languages" section under the 'People' heading).

this is actually quite convincing. any body has references claiming telegu is no 2?--ppm 20:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

From Iqbal50000: MY DEAR FRIENDS, I THINK THE EVIDENCES I HAVE STATED ABOVE ABSOLUTELY AND MOST CONCLUSIVELY PROVES THAT BENGALI IS THE 2ND MOST WIDELY SPOKEN LANGUAGE OF INDIA, AFTER HINDI. THE SOURCES I QUOTED ABOVE ARE NEUTRAL SOURCES (I.E FROM INDIAN GOVT SOURCES AND OTHER SOURCES), ALL OF WHICH STATE EXPLICITLY THAT BENGALI IS THE 2ND MOST WIDELY SPOKEN LANGUAGE IN INDIA AFTER HINDI! IN ALL OF THESE VERY SAME NEUTRAL SOURCES OF MINE, TELUGU IS STATED AS THE THIRD MOST WIDELY SPOKEN LANGUAGE OF INDIA AFTER HINDI AND BENGALI. THESE SOURCES ALSO GIVE PERCENTAGES FOR EACH OF THE LANGUAGES OF INDIA! AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THESE DATA/INFORMATION ARE NOT FROM WEST BENGAL OR FROM ANY OTHER STATE AUTHORITIES! THEY ARE FROM THE GOVT OF THE REPUBLIC OF INDIA AND OTHER SOURCES WHICH ARE NATIONAL/FEDERAL SOURCES-I.E. ACCEPTED SOURCES FOR THE COUNTRY OF INDIA AS A WHOLE!! MY FRIENDS WHO HAVE QUOTED SOURCES STATING TELUGU AS THE SECOND MOST WIDELY SPOKEN, ARE NOT NEUTRAL SOURCES. THEIR SOURCES ARE DATA/INFORMATION WHICH ARE EITHER FROM LOCAL/STATE SOURCES EG ANDHRA PRADESH STATE SOURCES, OR FROM SOURCES ABOUT/CONCENTRATING ON A STATE/LOCALITY (I.E. ANDHRA PRADESH). WE ALL KNOW THE OFFICIAL STATE LANGUAGE OF ANDHRA PRADESH IS TELEGU. I THINK WHEN WE ARE DISCUSSING NATIONAL/COUNTRYWIDE ATTRIBUTES OF ANY COUNTRY, NATIONAL/FEDERAL SOURCES SHOULD BE QUOTED, AND SHOULD BE REGARDED AS MORE RELIABLE THAN SOURCES FROM, (OR CASE STUDIES ON) A PARTICULAR STATE/LOCALITY OF THE COUNTRY! THEREFORE I WOULD KINDLY REQUEST THE AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE TO AMEND THE ARTICLE WHITH REGARDS TO THE RANK OF BENGALI IN INDIA, BEARING IN MIND ALL THE GOVT AND OTHER NEUTRAL 'OVERALL' COUNTRYWIDE SOURCES.!-REGARDS+BEST WISHES TO YOU ALL.

Bengali ranks as 7th in Native speakers - refer to Wikipedia's List of languages by number of native speakers. The current citation next to the ranking (i.e. [1] is out of date. Can we please update the information already? Jerse 06:00, 14 February 2007 (UITC)

From IQBAL50000: WIKIPEDIA IS A GREAT SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON A WIDE VARIETY OF SUBJECTS/TOPICS. HOWEVER, AT BEST IT IS A SECONDARY SOURCE OF INFORMATION, AND AS WIKIPEDIA ITSELF CLEARLY INDICATES, IT RELYS ON CITATIONS FROM OTHER SOURCES. SO THEREFORE, WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES ARE BASED ON OTHER PUBLISHED/SCRUTINISED SOURCES. SO, IN MY HUMBLE VIEW, ONE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE CANNOT BE USED TO VERIFY INFORMATION IN ANOTHER WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE. ALL WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES ARE BASED ON OTHER SOURCES, AND THE FIGURES I QUOTED ARE FROM CIA-THE WORLD-FACTBOOK, WHICH IS UPDATED REGULARLY. BEST REGARDS TO ALL THE CONTRIBUTORS OF WIKIPEDIA.

[edit] Bangla sopken in the Middle East

I am pretty sure Bangla is spoken by at least 10,000 people in some Middle Eastern countries, by large number of Bangladeshi, Indian workers. Could someone refine the Map.

But aren't they temporary residents? --ppm 05:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

From Iqbal50000: Hello friends. The 'temporary workers'who speak Hindi,Urdu, Swahili and other languages living/working in the Middle-Eastern countries are often stated in many websites. But, the number of Bengali speakers is never stated in these very same websites, when we all know that there are many Bengali people working/living in various Middle Eastern countries.

[edit] Good Article Nom

Don't see it anywhere on the nomination page. Does that mean it failed? Should I remove the tag at the top of the page? --Ttownfeen 16:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vs. Bengali Grammar article

There's some duplication between this article and the Bengali Grammar (BG) article. In general that's probably not a problem, but the BG article doesn't mention word order (apart from postpositions), while this one does. Seems like that ought to get at least as much coverage in the BG article. Likewise the (zero) copula. Mcswell 15:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FA Drive?

I think its time for a FA drive. Thoughts?--ppm 20:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Isupport the nom. Its time to have a FA drive.Amartyabag 06:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If no body opposses, I'll give it a try. Even if a failure might "energize the base" :)--ppm 03:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discuss

Whoever is changing the language rank, pls discuss it here. Your own ethnologue citation contradicts your assertion, look at the numbers pls--ppm 09:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

But the other citation (The Role of Attitudes in Language Shift and Language Maintenance in a New Immigrant Community: A Case Study) states Telugu is 2nd most common in India.--Dwaipayan (talk) 10:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Right, but ethnologue, as well as other references in this talk page contradict that. The issue atleast deserves discussion here. Let's see some more references. Also, though I am not discarding that reference out of hand, it is an article on Telegu, and might seem weaker than other references that take a all-India view (like ethnologue).--ppm 12:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

What would finish the discussion will be data from the 2001 census. I couldn't find it, but that would convince me either way--ppm 12:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Library of Congress country profile gives Bengali as the second most spoken language in India. It gives percentage also. Pleasee see page 7 of Country profile: India (December 2004). I think this source is more dependable than either of the two references used now. Please comment.--Dwaipayan (talk) 07:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regional variations

This section should probably be merged with dialect, as per FAC comments. I am holding back myself due to my, well, ignorance; but i'll give it a try unless someone else does it.--ppm 07:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Have a talk with SameerKhan. Then give it a go. In that case, the section "Dialect" may have to be placed down rather than just after "History".--Dwaipayan (talk) 10:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit summaries

Please be sure to use edit summaries. --Ideogram 03:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map, Sound sample

Looking at the worldwide distribution map right now, I think the baby blue dots need to be changed to some other color. The dots on Rome and Athens(?) are barely noticable. Also, I believe dots should be added to Atlanta, Ga., USA and Dubai, UAE.

The sound sample that Peter Isotalo asked about in the FA nom page can be found here

. Would someone mind finding a place to put it in the article?

--Ttownfeen 04:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

gave the map another try. pls take a look.--ppm 08:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks good! --Ttownfeen 03:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northern West Bengal, Chittagong hill tracts

Isn't Bengal NOT the principal language of these areas? Shouldn't it be light green perhaps? Maquahuitl 16:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

FROM IQBAL50000: WELL, CHITTAGONG HILL TRACTS ARE INSIDE BANGLADESH, AND NORTHERN WEST BENGAL IS IN WEST BENGAL STATE OF INDIA-WHICH IS OBVIOUS!, SO BOTH OF THE AREAS YOU MENTIONED ARE ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED-NEEDLESS TO SAY!

[edit] Regional usage

I wonder how justifiable the east/west dichotomy is. There are similar difference north and south. Just emphasizing differences across political boundaries seems incomplete--ppm 07:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second largest in India?

some sources say it's second, others point it's Telugu that's second. one of the sources given quotes only a 1991 census. the other is from Library of Congress. Language Engineering Research Centre at University of Hyderabad states it's Telugu that's in second. This one from a Chennai and this from Hyderabad institutes' papers says telugu is second. The official government website (ending with "nic.in") says In terms of population, Telugu ranks second to Hindi among the Indian languages. Shouldn't that be reflected accordingly in the article. Idleguy 08:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the confusion with this is the definition of “in India”: if it includes only speakers in West Bengal and not Bangladesh itself, then of course they wouldn’t outnumber speakers of Telugu! Unfortunately the political boundaries of “India” are still potentially confusing, even though Bangladesh has been a separate nation for over 35 years. MJ 18:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

FROM IQBAL50000: REST ASSURED, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CONFUSION HERE! INDIAN GOVERNMENT SOURCES QUOTE BENGALI AS THE SECOND MOST WIDELY SPOKEN LANGUAGE IN INDIA, AFTER HINDI(AND THIS IS, NEEDLESS TO SAY, IN TERMS OF POPULATION SIZE-NOT LAND SIZE!). THESE SOURCES MOST OBVIOUSLY DO NOT INCLUDE BANGLADESH!!! IT IS A SEPARATE COUNTRY! I THINK THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT IS WELL AWARE OF THIS FACT! DON'T YOU THINK SO? PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THE WHOLE DISCUSSION, ALONG WITH THE EVIDENCES/THE REFERENCES, THIS ARTICLE USED/CITED-BEFORE SAYING ANYTHING. IF YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCES TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT THE POSSIBLE "CONFUSION" YOUR ARE REFERING TO, PLEASE PRESENT IT. UNTIL THEN PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING ANY SUCH BASELESS STATEMENTS. ALL THE CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS DISCUSSION CANNOT ALL BE 'CONFUSED'-ONE OR TWO (ALONG WITH ME!) MAY BE, BUT ALL OF US CAN'T BE!BEST REGARDS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.142.81.167 (talk) 19:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Isn't চলিতভাষা pronounced as "cholit-bhasha" rather than "cholito-bhasha"? — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 16:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have heard both pronounciation in Kolkata region, though "cholit-bhasha" is probably more predominantly used.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, I've been hearing "cholito-bhasha" or "cholti bhasha". --Ragib 20:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This again illustrates regional variation :) Seniors in my family (who used to live in East Pakistan) says "cholti bhasha", whereas in my school days (in West Bengal) I have not heard this pronounciation. Here people use "cholit-bhasha", and also, "cholito-bhasha"!--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The Standard Colloquial Bengali (SCB) pronunciation is "cholito". --Zaheen 04:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Is it a cognate of the Hindi word chalte meaning "going". Contextually that's how I thought of it, as just the "going & coming" "everyday" dialect. (Hope you got my train of thought).Bakaman 02:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The participial adjective "cholito" is a derivative of the Bengali verb "chola" (to move, to go). The meaning of "cholito" in this context is "in vogue". --Zaheen 16:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Isn't standard colloquial bengali based entirely on the Kolkata dialect? Is this the accepted standard of west bengal only or of bangladesh also? It is fascinating though, my parents are bangladeshi and they say cholti-bhasha. Taajikhan 07:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

No, Standard Colloquial Bengali (Cholti Bangla) is not entirely based on the Kolkata dialect, although the two are relatively close (especially when compared to Bangladeshi dialects). It is based on the dialect of Nadia, which is not far from Kolkata. There is definitely a distinctive Kolkata dialect that can be heard in many movies and shows, and sometimes it's hard for people from Bangladesh to distinguish this from Cholti Bangla, but I presume people from West Bengali are more aware of the difference. Also, regarding your parents speaking Cholti Bangla in Bangladesh... I believe this is very common, especially among middle and upper class families in the cities. From my contacts and travels in Bangladesh, I've noticed this is growing more common with every generation in fact. Strange but interesting! --SameerKhan 08:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

Congrats everyone. The article is now featured ! Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The writing is still unclear in a few areas. The following doesn't flow.

Some argue for much earlier points of divergence — going back to even 500 CE[6] but the language was not static; different varieties coexisted and authors often wrote in multiple dialects. For example, Magadhi Apabhramsha is believed to have evolved into Magadhi Abahatta around the 6th century; Abahatta competed with Bengali for a period of time.

The first sentence is fine on its own. The second sentence, however, is awkward. Why was Magadhi Apabhramsa brought up? Which Abahatta "competed" with Bangla? When? What was the "competition" about? How does all this relate to the statements made in the first sentence? No brilliant prose here. --Zaheen 12:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The following does not sound right:

Like most other modern Indic languages, Bengali arose from the Magadhi Apabhramsha melting pot of Middle Indic languages, around the turn of the first millennium CE.

Chatterji's ODBL (1926) says on p. 91:

“

The modern represantatives of Magadhi Apabhramsa are Bengali, Assamese, Oriya, Magahi, Maithili and Bhojpuriya

”

These do not constitute "most other modern Indic languages", as the sentence under consideration suggests. Magadhi Apabrhamsa was spoken/used on the eastern parts of the subcontinent, possibly in Bihar-Bengal-Orissa region. --Zaheen 13:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 320 million?

320 million native speakers of Bengali? Where is this number coming from? Its unbelievably high--ppm 17:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

About 220-230 (at least) million of that is accounted for by Bengal area. I'm unsure if Bengalis spread around the word constitute a number as big as 0.1 billion. Anyone else has any ideas? My personal hunch is this was a result of competitive inflation with other South Asian languages. urnonav 16:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I think its just flat wrong. 220 sounds more reasonable. Also, apart from being totally unacceptable, I don't understand the motivation btw this contest, as regardless of the figures, Bangla will be placed in 2nd position as far as south asian languages are concerned.--ppm 20:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pie chart

The pie chart shows todbhov words as being the largest component of Bangla vocabulary while the accompanying text has totshom words as the largest. Which is right? PEHook 01:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

the 2nd paragraph of the section answers your question--ppm 21:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking of citation

I notice that Jerse (talk · contribs) has been removing the ranking citation repeatedly from the article. I request the user to discuss this here in the talk page before repeating the same thing. The citation clearly backs the information given in the page. This is a featured article, and undiscussed edits like this are unfortunate. Thank you. --Ragib 05:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, he has blanked the citation again. Note that his main argument is that the article on List of languages by native speakers ranks Bn as 7th. But that ranking is clearly arbitrary there (the two numbers column doesn't match with the ranking column). I request the restoration of the citation unless Jerse can come up with any solid argument. --Ragib 06:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I restored the citation--NAHID 12:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Writing System

Should we redirect the Writing System to Eastern Nagari script? After that, may be, we can merge Bengali script and Assamese script as these two articles essentially deal with the same set of scripts. -Bikram98 06:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed in Talk:Bengali script. I don't see any reason to merge the status quo ... --Ragib 06:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the following sentence:

“

The Bengali writing system is not alphabetical such as the Roman script.

”

What does it mean to be "alphabetical"? → AA ^{(talk • contribs)} — 16:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Please read Writing_system#Types of writing systems to understand the difference between alphabetical and abugida writing systems. --Zaheen 20:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I always assumed the term "alphabetical" referred to the ordering of the letters. I see it has a specific concept in linguistics. Amazing what things you learn here :) → AA ^{(talk • contribs)} — 20:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vocabulary

"(67%) are considered tôtshôm (direct reborrowings from Sanskrit), 21,100 (28%) are tôdbhôb (native Bengali vocabulary), "

In all the languages I know (For eg Kannada and Marathi) Tatsama and Tadbhava are used respectively as 'directly borrowed/like' and 'derived from/originated from' sanskrit. So I was wondering if tôdbhôb explained as - native Bengali vocabulary is a correct translation. Both the words tatsama and taddbhava are sanskrit words with the meaning as I explained above and tôdbhôb definately sound like Tadbhava. --Kaveri 20:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually Bengali evolved not directly from Sanskrit, but via Prakrit. So, Sanskrit words in their unchanged form are called "Tatsama", while words that went through a sort of derivation/transformation are called "Tadbhaba" (I guess that's what you were referring to). Native Bengali words are not in either of these two sets ... --Ragib 20:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The terms "tatsama" (Sanskrit-borrowed), "ardhatatsama" (semi-Sanskrit-borrowed), "tadbhava" (Sanskrit-derived), "bangla" (Bengali), "deshi" (local), and "bideshi" (foreign) are somewhat misleading in Bengali dictionaries. "Tatsama", "ardhatatsama", "deshi", and "bideshi" are all borrowed words... where "tatsama" and "ardhatatsama" words are borrowed from Sanskrit, "deshi" words are borrowed from Austroasiatic languages, and "bideshi" words are borrowed from all other languages. "Tadbhava" and "bangla" words are normally grouped together as native/inherited words, although "tadbhava" means it existed in the earliest forms of Bengali (inherited vocabulary from Prakrit and thus from Sanskrit originally), and "bangla" means it was coined in Bengal but after Bengali had already become its own language.

As Ragib said, Bengali (as well as Marathi) evolved from other languages which in turn evolved from Sanskrit or at least something like Sanskrit. Kannada, of course, did not evolve from Sanskrit, but like Marathi and Bengali, it did borrow a large number of words from Sanskrit over its history. Words that were directly borrowed from Sanskrit after Sanskrit had ceased to be a spoken language are traditionally called "tatsama" (or in Bengali, tôtshômo). Some of these borrowed words replaced or stand beside other words which are actually also originally Sanskrit words but transformed over centuries of language change. For example, in Bengali there is a word কৃষি krishi "farming", which is a tatsama word (borrowed from Sanskrit after Sanskrit had ceased to be a normally spoken language), which stands beside the word চাষ chash "farming", which means the same thing and in fact derives from the same word কৃষি krishi. চাষ chash would be considered a tadbhava as it is an originally Sanskrit word that has undergone significant transformation in the development of the Bengali language. Now, the term "tadbhava" is still somewhat ambiguous. In the case of Bengali, which is an Indic language distantly descending from Sanskrit, "tadbhava" words are in fact the native words of the language. Some form of Sanskrit evolved into some form of Prakrit, which evolved into Old Bengali and so on. All the words from Sanskrit that still remain in Bengali (tadbhava) have of course undergone significant changes, but they are still the core native vocabulary of Bengali. In fact, Bengali dictionaries don't label many words as "native" The only words called "native" in Bengali are the ones that were coined in Bengal after most of the core vocabulary had already been established. These so-called "native" words only constitute a small fraction of the vocabulary that would actually be considered native/inherited in the linguistic sense (the tadbhava words). Anyhow I'm starting to ramble, but the main point is that the labels as they are in the article are accurate. --SameerKhan 07:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. So from the explanation (ramblings ;)) I gather that the category I call in Marathi vocabulary as Tadbhava would be called 'Native' in Bengali. --Kaveri 18:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

SameerKhan's explanation does not suport his end assertion..

     " but the main point is that the labels as they are in the article are accurate".

I Think tadbhava should not be translated as "native" but as "derived". In fact the word "Tadbhava" itself is a "Tatsama" word.. A Sanskrit word roughly meaning "as it became" . So in fact Bangla is very similar to Marathi in this respect. we have "Tatsama", "Tadbhava" , "Deshaj" and "Parabhashiya" ( Borrowed from sanskrit, derived from Sanskrit ( or originating in Snaskrit), "native" and "Borrowed from languages other than Sanskrit). I am reluctant to change this myself as I am neither a Bangla speaker nor an authority on the language. Just making a point.. see if anyone agrees!

Yes, but in this case, Bengali and Marathi (as languages) are derived from Sanskrit, so "tadbhava" can mean both "derived from Sanskrit" and "native". In Bengali, at least, tadbhava words are the Sanskrit-derived Prakrit words that were inherited into Bengali as it evolved out of Prakrit. Thus, they were the base of the language's vocabulary when the language began to develop out of Prakrit. Any Sanskrit word borrowed after that point is "tatsama", and any non-Sanskrit-derived word coined in Bengali after that point is "deshi". This is similar to Spanish and Latin. The core vocabulary of Spanish is simply Latin-derived words that evolved into what became the beginnings of Spanish (like "tadbhava"). But Spanish also re-borrowed Latin words after Latin had already ceased to be a spoken language and Spanish had already formed into an independent language. These re-borrowed words could be thought of as "tatsama". Then of course a few words simply came about independently in the Spanish-speaking world ("deshi").

One must remember that all languages came from other languages. That doesn't mean they all borrowed their vocabulary from other languages. Every language inherits some words and borrows others. Bengali inherited a large vocabulary from its parent language Prakrit, which inherited its vocabulary from its parent language, Sanskrit. These are not borrowings, as the words form a direct line of evolution down from Sanskrit through Prakrit to Bengali. These would be called "native words" by most linguists and "tadbhava words" by Indian scholars. Then of course Bengalis (and presumably Marathi-speakers as well) borrowed more Sanskrit vocabulary to supplement the vocabulary they already inherited. These are the "tatsama" words. Anyhow, I'm not so good at explaining things when I'm not talking to someone in person... so I really apologize if this isn't helping! --SameerKhan 07:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The graph seems to have mixed tathshom with tadbhab. the legend shows the majority to be tadbhab whereas the article and the discussion states that tathshom is the majority. --AmmarK 01:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] tatsama

Hello, I have created Tatsama and would appreciate contribution from Bangla scholars. I myself am mainly busy with Sinhala alphabet, but I find it very interesting that very similar socio-etymological patterns are found in Bangla and Sinhala Jasy jatere 19:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rank of Bengali in World Languages: ignatius.edu is not WP:RS; 21 Feb in lead

This school webpage:

• The World's Most Widely Spoken Languages. Saint Ignatius High School (February 6, 2001). Retrieved on 2006-11-17.

is based on 1999 ethnologue.com data and is clearly not WP:RS. The article is already referring to the 2007 encarta data (rank 6) and the 2005 ethnologue data (rank 5); if there are other trustworthy sources, let's have them.

Also, I feel Ekushe february is an important aspect distinguising Bengali and the power the language holds on its people; added a brief summary on this in the lead. mukerjee (talk) 21:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to have the words "widely spoken" rephrased to something else, because Bengali is not exactly one of the most widely spoken languages in the world. "Widely" primarily means "over a great (geographical) extent".--Zaheen 03:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

from iqbal50000: "WIDELY SPOKEN" DOES ACTUALLY MEAN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO SPEAK IT, AND NOT THE SIZE OF THE AREAS ITS SPOKEN IN! IF THAT WAS THE CASE, ENGLISH, SPANISH, RUSSIAN, WOULD BE CONSIDERED AS MORE "WIDELY SPOKEN" THAN MANDARIN, SINCE THESE LANGUAGES COVER MORE AREAS! THE TERM "WIDELY SPOKEN" IN THIS CONTEXT, IS USED IN ALL THE PUBLISHED SOURCES I ENCOUNTERED SO FAR IN MY LIFE. CAN YOU GIVE ANY PUBLISHED/PEER-REVIEWED SOURCES, WHERE ANOTHER PHRASE IS USED INSTEAD OF "WIDELY SPOKEN" IN THE CONTEXT OF NUMBER OF SPEAKERS OF A LANGUAGES? IF SO PLEASE PRESENT IT, SINCE I AM YET TO SEE SUCH SOURCES.

BENGALI IS SPOKEN BY A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE AS MOTHER TONGUE, AND THATS WHAT IT MEANS WHEN THE PHRASE "WIDELY SPOKEN" IS USED. AS FAR AS I AM AWARE, THIS IS THE USUAL TERMINOLOGY IN THE FIELD. BENGALI/BANGLA IS SOMETIMES CONSIDERED AS ONE OF THE WORLDS ARTERIAL LANGUAGES, AS ITS A COMMON MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BETWEEN LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE, WHO ARE ONE OF THE LARGEST LINGUISTIC GROUPS OF THE PLANET. THERE'S OVER 3500 LANGUAGES IN THE WORLD, AND BANGLA IS THE SIXTH!.BEST REGARDS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.142.81.167 (talk) 18:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you seem to be right. Widely does mean "among a large number of people" here. I forgot about the secondary meaning of the word. On a different note, could you not use all caps? Basic netiquette. --Zaheen 23:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added dubious tag - 230 mil speakers

All other wikipedia articles which cite sources indicate a lower number of speakers than that. Although these may be outdated due to population growth, it's still our job to use the cited numbers. I'm not too sure what to write though, but I added the dubious tag because this info is likely to be wrong (concerning the number of speakers). Althena (talk) 07:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Added a reference supporting the number. The info isn't likely to be wrong, considering the population of Bangladesh, West Bengal, Parts of Assam/Bihar/Tripura etc. --Ragib (talk) 09:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment from blogsd

 is it a joke  this article and every article  related  Bangla (Bengali) there was a  lots of lots of bangla latter typing mistake . there is  no The Bengali consonant clusters Latter ( juktakkhor in Bengali) . Why ??? . The "oukar" ঔ / কৌ   and okar ও /  কো  Latter is totally  wrong .  

wrong type oukar " কৌ " right type oukar is " ৈকা similarly wrong type okar কো right type েকা . if u dont change it . some time its convey deferent meaning and maximam time no meaning. its just look like " wkipidaeio.gr " does it has any meaing or "wikipedia.org has meaning . person who dont know bangla will think this is "কৌ" right type . thats not good for bangla launge . --Blogsd ! 21:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

It is your machine that needs to be fixed. In other words, your browser/system is not at all configured to show unicode characters properly. You'd find the same problems viewing any other Indic script. Please refer to WP:INDIC for instructions on how to fix your browser. I'm copying the response to your talk page too so that you can fix it. Feel free to contact me if you still have problems fixing your system. --Ragib (talk) 07:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bangla or Bengali

Why is the article called Bengali and Not Bangla —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.193.170.34 (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

English Wikipedia uses common English names and Bengali is easily more recognizable in English than Bangla. --Regents Park (moult with my mallards) 17:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] International Mother Language Day

The article gives the impression that UNESCO celebrates IMLD as a sort of commemoration of the event in 1952. However, the UNESCO website ([2]) does not make this connection. My guess is that the idea came about independently, and then the day was picked to synchronize with the Bangladesh holiday. Someone should rewrite this accordingly and cite appropriately. (Also, the subsequently gives the impression that the two events happened close together in time. However, the firings were in 1952 and IMLD came about in 1999.)--Regents Park (moult with my mallards) 17:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is a quote from a UNESCO website: "In recognition of the Bangla Language Movement, the International Mother Language Day was declared in Resolution 12 of UNESCO`s 30th General Conference in 1999.".

Also, note that the resolution 12 was a result of the acceptance of the proposal submitted by Bangladesh, and supported by several other countries, adopted by UNESCO. The specific text of the Bangladeshi proposal adopted into Resolution 12 reads: "Recognizing the unprecedented sacrifice made by Bangladesh for the cause of mother language on 21 February 1952,"[3] --Ragib (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

OK. Mea culpa. I'll pop in the citations and make a small change to the text. --Regents Park (moult with my mallards) 18:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Quick additional note. The first link above ([4]) is a quote that refers to Resolution 12 of UNESCO's 30th general conference (http://www.unesco.org/education/imld_2002/resolution_en.shtml) doesn't refer to the event. The second link ([5]) does but is a draft resolution. I've included the second link as a reference in the article but if someone can find a better citation (either where the draft resolution is accepted or in any UNESCO document) that would be much better. --Regents Park (moult with my mallards) 18:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I think we can refer to this UNESCO journal, no.11, 30th session, Monday nov 8, 1999. It mentions that "30 C/DR.35 Submitted by: Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia. Supported by: Oman, Benin, Sri Lanka, Egypt, Russian Federation Bahamas, Dominican Republic, Belarus, Philippines, Côte d'Ivoire, India, Honduras, Gambia, Federated States of Micronesia, Vanuatu, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, Comoros, Pakistan, Islamic Republic of Iran, Lithuania, Italy, Syrian Arab Republic".

On the Journal no. 16 (page 6), it is mentioned that on 10 am Nov 12, 6th meeting, this resolution was examined and recommended. The following text from UNESCO also shows that as a result of this draft amendment submitted by Bangladesh (Dr.35), the commission made the following recommendation:

30 C/DR.35 (submitted by Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia; supported by Oman, Benin,Sri Lanka, Egypt, the Russian Federation, Bahamas, Dominican Republic, Belarus, the Philippines, Côte d’Ivoire, India, Honduras, Gambia, the Federated States of Micronesia, Vanuatu, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, Comoros, Pakistan, Islamic Republic of Iran, Lithuania, Italy and the Syrian Arab Republic) relating to paragraph 05204, the Commission recommends that the General Conference proclaim “International Mother Language Day” to be observed on 21 February.

I hope this helps. :) Thanks. --Ragib (talk) 19:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Additional Source

This book (full-text available online) may be used as an additional source in this article. Arman ^(Talk) 02:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)