Talk:Battle of Vinegar Hill

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[edit] NPOV

There appear to be a few POV statements that are not backed up by citations in this article; e.g. "and a massacre of stragglers ensued, mainly women and children, causing hundreds more deaths. The infantry followed and were guilty of more atrocities." Statements like this need to be rewritten in a more NPOV way, or backed with citations. DrFrench 11:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This happened and I will find the sources, they are not only from the Irish side, a soldier from the Dumbartonshire regiment, ArchibaldMacClaren, bragged about it in his memoirs. In future put a tag requesting sources instead of assuming POV, you may not believe the british army were capable of any wrongdoing but the facts tell otherwise. --Ponox 11:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Last sentence unnecessarily aggressive, IMO. A request for citations isn't unusual or offensive. Additional citations would also be useful if/when status reviews are requested. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith and Wikipedia:Civility. Nice article, BTW (see comments, below). Folks at 137 21:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This was not just a request for sources, POV was alleged and a "controversial topic" tag slapped on the article. --Ponox 09:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More info

Some more detail, if available:

1. why were there so many non-combatants on the hill?
2. where were they from?
3. apart from the bombardment at "dawn", there's no indication of timescale: did it take a morning, a day?
4. what was the composition - order of battle - of each side, ie, units, type?
5. the British commander, Lake, is mentioned elsewhere for his brutal attitude towards Irish rebels and the differing attitude of his commander, Cornwallis. These would add background to the treatment of the rebels (with citations, of course).
6. the pic of Vinegar Hill shows it to be defensible. How then did the British troops, heavily outnumbered, suffer only 100 casualties?

Folks at 137 21:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I will try to answer off the cuff, I can provide sources but not at hand.

why were there so many non-combatants on the hill? For safety mainly, the fighting had ravaged the countryside and there was an enormous fear of the military who had carried out atrocities, including widespread rape (sources I have plent of). Vinegar Hill was not only a military camp it functioned as the de facto rebel capital, supplies were available there and non-combatants carried out vital support roles.

where were they from It was estimated by Castleregh that virtually the entire population of Wexford had joined the rebellion.

apart from the bombardment at "dawn", there's no indication of timescale: did it take a morning, a day?

The fighting lasted between three to four hours so the battle would have been over by midday.

what was the composition - order of battle - of each side, ie, units, type?

The British advance in four colums, three from the west, one into Enniscorthy . I do not have full details to hand but will locate.

the pic of Vinegar Hill shows it to be defensible. How then did the British troops, heavily outnumbered, suffer only 100 casualties?

Mlyes Byrne one of the rebel leaders lamented the indefensibility of Vinegar Hill and that nothing had been done to improve it's defensibility. The approaches offered cover and the British were able to bring their cannon within range of the rebels and sit back until the rebels were forced to attack. They were greatly outgunned and under attack from two sides. In addition one of the rebel colums due from the south did not arrive until the battle was nearly over. The casualties were probaly higher than 100 as these figures are taken from the offical return shortly after the battle and cannot be said to be totally accurate. In addition commanders often only gave casulties for their own regiments.--Ponox 09:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date

Was it the 21st, as a lot of sources date the 12th, I can gather and post them if you'd like. I just want to be clear on the correct date. -RiverHockey 19:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)