Talk:Battle of Surabaya

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[edit] New article

This is just info copied from the Indonesian National Revolution. Articles needs refining. --Merbabu 12:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

This article only covers some aspects of the events. We need to do more work. Here are some sources (no doubt there will be some contradictions between sources and POV but we can manage that!).

I am sure there are many more out there, and i'd like to find some journals and books from the period.--Merbabu 04:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC) great job Merbabu!

[edit] Previous discussion

This discussion was moved from Nielswik's and Merbabu's talk page I'm sorry it has untidy layout because it was combined from two different talk page. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 06:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I think we need Battle of Surabaya article. That battle was pretty heroic and significant in Indonesian history. There is a section talking about the battle on Indonesian National Revolution, but I think we need separate article. How to request an article in WikiProject Indonesia? Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 12:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Created. :) It needs work so good on you for volunterring. I suggest for a start references, sub-headings, even pics. And I think we can maybe shorten the section now in Indonesian National Revolution--Merbabu 12:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

this picture is very famous when talking about Battle of Surabaya, but I don't know of its copyright status. I saw the picture everywhere, can I assume that picture is free use? Thanks. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 13:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Re Bung Tomo pic, one can't assume any pic is free of copyright restrictions. I think there is a good chance it is though. I will get back to you on that one. I hope we can use it. And have a look at this pic - [5] - i love it! Do you think it is the actual flag incident? --Merbabu 13:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool. Flag incident in Hotel Yamato is also regarded as heroic incident by Indonesians. They tore down blue part of Dutch Red-White-Blue flag, so the flag became Red and White. Cool, isn't it? Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 14:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I also had a great high resolution photo of General Mallaby's bombed car, but now I can't find it. --Merbabu 14:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Found it! [6] Do you think it is the car? I thought it would be more damaged. Also, this: [[7] ]--Merbabu 14:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Great :) Nielswik_(talk) 13:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether it is Mallaby's car. I have not seen that pic before. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 14:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I swapped some of the stats around in the info box. I am sure it is correct now, but change it back if I am wrong. By the way, what does 100,000 mean? It has no info. See diff: [8] --Merbabu 02:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice. According to Indonesian Heritage sources, 100,000 was irregulars. you mistakenly deleted it here[9]. 20,000 is member of TKR (Tentara Keamanan Rakyat). TKR was formed by ex-member of Peta and some Heiho. During Japanese occupation, the Japs trained some Indonesians. They said Heiho was trained to fight Allies in the battlefront, and Peta was trained to defend Indonesia in case Allies attacks. That's why they are different from the 100,000 irregulars. I assumed the 100,000 irregulars were normal citizens who fought voluntarily. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 04:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it appears that it just might be the car. This makes more sense now that it seems the grenade was thrown from the car, not at the car. RC Smith claimed that although he throw the greande Mallaby was actually shot moments before (Smith seems to have been in the car). Anyway, the sources: [10], then click on "Detail". I wonder if we can use this??? --Merbabu 05:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Re mallaby death, i'm unclear who actually caused mallaby's death. But I'll read your sources. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 05:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

regarding hotel yamato pic? can we use it as fair use? the rational may be historical event, and no alternative available. what about bung tomo pic. May it be free of copyright? I don't think the photographer of that pic ever copyrighted his photograph. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 05:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Re Mallaby death - read the pdf "Who Killed Malaby". It quotes direct eyewitnesses. It is all interesting but the most relevant pages are perhaps pages 98 to 99 as printed on the text (or 12 & 13 in the pdf). A lot of websites say "killed in an explosion" but I cannot find a direct source that actually says the explosion killed him. There is a lot of info that can be used for background for the article. I haven't had time yet to incorporate it. Regarding your questions on photos, maybe put the Bung Tomo photo in explaining fair use (although WP:FU says photos can't be used just to show what people look like - although, as you say, it is anonymous). I might try and see if I can also include the car photo. The best is the Hotel picture - that captures a moment that can't be repeated. Maybe we should put all this discussion onto the article talk page for the benefit of others. --Merbabu 05:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I added Bung tomo pic and hotel yamato pic. they are found in goverment archive, making it in public domain. Does this pic (scene of the battle) classify as fair use? [11]. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 03:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)