Talk:Battle of Nicopolis
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[edit] Comments
[edit] Numbers
According to Spanish, Turkish and French history books, the Turkish army was much smaller than the Christian. The Ottoman Empire had not expanded large enought to gather such forces. There were mostly Turkish nomads who participated in the war. They were not more than 10,000 maximum! The Christian army managed to gather ah much larger army, which was 100,000. The reason why they were som many is because they were allied! 40,000 were Hungarians, 40,000 were French, and 20,000 were Wallachians.
According to a British historian the composing armies at the battle of Nicopolis were not more then 6000 each. Who wrote those numbers down (104000 and 100000)?, its simply not true. References to this article are missing ,therefore the numbers in this article should be taken with a grain of salt.
- There are references given at the bottom. It even says in the article that the numbers are most likely exaggerations, but nevertheless those are what the sources claim... Adam Bishop 16:01, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
- Well, sources claimed something like four million fo the First Crusade, as far as I can remember, and there were really about 100,000, including hangers-on. Ten to one or more is a usual ratio of claimed to actual combatants, if I recall correctly. Supersheep 10:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
According to Barbara Tuchman, no English nobility took part in this battle.
- That's pretty amazing, according to this article, no English nobility took part in this battle! Adam Bishop 02:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
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- My searches about the Ottoman war machine show me that the Turkish army couldn't reach to 100,000 before the Fall of Constantinople because generally sources call Mehmet II's invasion army as the largest force that Ottomans gathered until that time. With respect; Deliogul 21:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Atiya is rather obsolote as a reference. If I have time, I will rewrite the article. 81.182.180.134 07:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The Christian army numbered 8000 (according to Mályusz)-25.000 (Rázsó) men (35.000 in the beginning of the campaign, but large forces was left in captured castles, p. e. 300 in Vidin). The Turkish army was about 35-40.000 men-strong (10.000 - Mályusz).
- Hnag on a minute. The numbers according to Battle by R.G. Grant ISBN no. 1 4053 1100 2 claims that there were 16,000 Christians and 20,000 Ottomans.
And of course the Ottomans had expanded alot they fielded 80,000+ men only 60 years later, check out my maps at Byzantine-Ottoman wars which are sourced from the Oxford History of Byzantium and the Compact History of the Wolr by THE TIMES. Tourskin 13:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] largest crusade?
The whole crusader force was only 25 000 men at best case. Atiya is an outdated source. In fact the whole article needs rewriting. 84.2.210.173 15:19, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Exactly, the numbers are wildly inflated. Sources tried to claim that the Poles and Lithuanians fielded over 3,000,000 men at Tannenberg. It's a medieval historian thing.
The Hungarian military historians nowadays are relatively sure, that the numbers of Ottoman troops were oversized again and again. Even in the 16th century, when the Ottoman Empire was more powerful than ever before (and later), the total strength of their armies attacking Hungary (Mohács, 1526) was ca. 60,000 troops (and not 100,000 or more). There is a new book about the decisive battle of the Hungarian-Ottoman wars between 1396 and 1526 – published only in Hungarian language -, which author’s opinion is, that the total number of the Ottoman forces by Nikopolis was about 40,000, with only 3,000 of janissaries. The strength of the crusaders could not be exactly reconstructed, but they were not more than 5-10,000 knights and other mounted soldier from France and Burgundy, 10-15,000 cavalry and infantry from Hungary and ca. 5,000 from Wallachia. The cited book is: Pálosfalvi, Tamás: Nikápolytól Mohácsig 1396-1526. Published by Zrínyi, Budapest, Hungary, 2005. sorry for bad english. regards. -g- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.133.86.84 (talk) 21:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] References
I am sorry but I am gonna have to take drastic measures here and replace these biased Turkish sources which aren't even in English with these neutral ones:
- Philip Sherrard, Great Ages of Man Byzantium, Time-Life Books
- Madden, Thomas F. Crusades the Illustrated History. 1st ed. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan P, 2005
- Parker, Geoffrey. Compact History of the World. 4th ed. London: Times Books, 2005
- Mango, Cyril. The Oxford History of Byzantium. 1st ed. New York: Oxford UP, 2002
- Grant, R G. Battle a Visual Journey Through 5000 Years of Combat. London: Dorling Kindersley, 2005
And use real numbers, not 60,000 men by Sigismund, thats ridiculous. Besides I can't analyse these sources in Turkish, so its not fair.! I will give 24 hrs for a response before taking action here.Tourskin 13:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The fact that these sources are in Italian and Turkish doesn't make them invalid.
Try to be a bit more polyglot - the world doesn't only consist of the English language.
You'll realize that your horizons of knowledge and pool of resources will instantly become greater.
By the way, the source for the numbers of the Crusaders (including 60,000 Hungarians) is Italian, not Turkish:
http://www.maat.it/livello2/turchia-europa.htm#bayazedI
Regards. Flavius Belisarius 22:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Italians are missing
Sigismund returned back home on board of a Venetian ship, might I remind you.
The Republic of Venice and the Republic of Genoa were among the participants in the war, like the Spaniards, Swiss, and the Knights of St. John who were based in Rhodes (instead of Malta) back then. Not to mention the Poles, Bohemians and Scots.
The new figures are vastly incomplete.
Regards. Flavius Belisarius 13:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- You might not believe this, but I do agree with you there to some extent, but without good references I am afraid we can't prove it. If you feel so strongly, then I won't stop you from changing it back, but I must state my protest if you do so without any other references. I'll have a look on the web too. As you can see, I have referenced my work with very reliable sources. Also, remember that desertions took a toll on all.Tourskin 14:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I found your sources, these websites show numbers that you seem to support: http://www.geocities.com/nbulgaria/bulgaria/nicop396.htm http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258182.htm
I couldn't find anything else to confirm these. I wouldn't mind getting someone else with more knowledge on this matter or a third party/opinion/research. In the meantime, I am gonna try to contact Thomas F Madden, A professor who wrote this book: and ask.Tourskin 14:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- Tourskin, I am concerned about your approach to sources. All the sources you have listed are meant to be introductions, or their scope is far too vast to be useful for such a specific battle. Madden's book is a good start but it is also meant to be an intro to the crusades in general; it is very short and doesn't say much about Nicopolis. And where are they getting their information from? Have you looked for any primary sources? I understand that foreign languages are a problem (I can't read Turkish either!), but you shouldn't discount research just because it isn't in English. I also wouldn't put my faith in random websites like geocities or about.com. It's great that you are trying to help, but I worry that the article might actually suffer in the end. Adam Bishop 15:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Very well then. Without trying to sound bitter, I can't really care anymore since you question my sources, and I can't defend them as well as I had hoped. By the way, I think the number of Ottoman Troops labelled as 20,000 should be changed too since this was suggested if the Crusaders numbered 16,000. Anyways, I was actually referencing Battle by R.G. Grant not geocites and in fact the figues that were preposed that I am opposing were from geocites. 100,000 on each side sounds like alot and the previous version of the article even said that the figures were exagerated. s for the Italians and the vast number of participants, remember that most only sent token forces in an effort to appease the Pope which would explain why my initial numbers were so much lower but I can't prove this so I think I iwll take my leave of this article for now until much more solid information can be found. Tourskin 17:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
16,000 is the total number of the Hungarian and French/Burgundian/English troops, not the total number of the Crusaders.
The "16,000" figure does not include the 10,000 Wallachians, 6,000 Germans and 15,000 Bohemians, Poles, Italians (from Genoa, Venice and territories of Italy under the Holy Roman Empire), Spaniards (Holy Roman Empire), Swiss, Scots and the Knights of St. John (who were back then based in Rhodes). Flavius Belisarius 01:32, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
- Alright - but why has the number of Ottoman troops been lowered to 20,000 again. I now I added that in but it doesn't make sense if what you say is correct. The Ottomans suffered heavier losses than the Christians so why do they have less men, that would mean that they would have been wiped out. I'm getting rid of 20,000. If you say that the Crusader force was more than 16,000 than the Ottomans would have been more than 20,000 too. Tourskin 10:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
- Again the no. 20,000 has emerged yet none have discussed this change. There is no references that point to this dismally low number. Considering that Bayezid took an army from a siege of Constantinople it would be safe to assume that the army was large. Indeed, Bayezid some 6 years later was able to field some 85,000 troops according to Battle of Ankara article and I know we aren't suppose to source from wikipedi but this number (85,000) was sourced from an external source. So if Bayezid had 85,000 men in 1402 after the costly Nicopolis, then he must have had at least 100,000 then. Tourskin 20:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
"In fact the Crusaders probably numbered some 16,000 men. Traditional Turkish sources give the number of Ottoman troops as 10,000 but when their Balkans vassals were included they may have numbered around 15,000. One thing is clear, the forces that eventually faced each other outside Nicopolis were similar in number." David Nicolle, Nicopolis 1396: The Last Crusade, p. 37 Lysandros 00:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, new point - why does it say that teh Ottomans had half the numbers of the crusader force? Tourskin 19:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
