Talk:Battle of Świecino

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Contents 1 Early discussions 2 The external link appears to be broken. 3 Name of the battle: Swiecino vs. Swiecin 3.1 Books about Swiecin/Swiecino 3.2 Google hits about Swiecino 3.3 Village of Swiecino 4 Description of the battle

[edit] Early discussions

It's not clear to me what "tabor" is. Is it a technical term known to most military historians? Or could it possibly be a word needing an English translation here?

IMHO, it needs to be translated JHK

In my (rather old) polish dictionary it means something like 'Rolling stock' or 'train'. This doesn't make sense in all cases used in the article though.

Tabor is a) mountain and city in Czech, important for hussite wars b) some biblical mountain c) military term, referring to wagons connected by chains. Formation of wagons could fight and moving (something like first panzer formations) or could be fortified and became wagenburg, fortified camp, entranched camp. d) tabor is also army service column.

Tabor was very typical for Old-Polish army, it developed first however in Czech, it was then enhanced (and adapted back to Poland) by Cossacks. Other nations may also use tabors.

I don't know which word use, since i am not sure if wagenburg, or descriptive "wagons connected by chains" will be ok to use here. I decided that i will use word tabor and i will later exaplin it's meaning in separate entry, however i guess native english speakers should know better what word would fit here szopen --- szopen I am guessing you are talking about the "War of the cities" the Preussische Bund Hansa cities versus the Teutonic Knights ? When you write in Polish Swiecin are you referring to Schwetz at the Vistula River ? user:H.J.

This could be Battle of Schwetz, but battle of Swiecin definetely was during war between Poland and Teuton Order. Again, Prussian confederacy was _not_ only of cities, although cities, especially three of them, played big part in them. Peace which ended war was between Teutons and Poland, not between Teutons and Prussian confederacy.

I will add Schwetz as a German name, and i will add also redirect. szopen

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To szopen By the dates and places it sounds like that is the battle. It is called the Thirteen-Year-War. user:H.J.

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By "the Polish crown," English speakers understand "the monarchy (government) of Poland." If you want to change it to the name of the ruler, then you need to change it to read "the Polish king." JHK

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Would it be simpler to just say that all the cavalry were mercenaries, plus X of the infantry?

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[edit] The external link appears to be broken.

Removed bad link, new links added. Swiecino 23:00, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Name of the battle: Swiecino vs. Swiecin

Polish name of the battle is Bitwa pod Świecinem which gives no clue what is the nominative for the village name Świecin or Świecino. If you consult a map of Poland http://www.pilot.pl/index.php3?Z_CITY_NAME=%A6wiecino you will see that the correct name is Świecino.

This page should be moved to Battle of Swiecino to avoid this simple spelling error. Mestwin 04:06, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Were this the Polish Wikipedia, I would agree. It is not; it is the English one. (I might add I would use the same rationale for someone trying to move Gdansk to Danzig.) - Hephæstos|§ 04:10, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Swiecino is a *real* placename, Swiecin is not. I doubt the village or the battle are so well known that they received a separate English name. In this case local name should be used in good spelling.

I am sorry if moving the page upset you, but for me it was simply a spelling error, that should be corrected in 5 seconds Mestwin 04:34, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It didn't upset me; it is simply wrong. It is as wrong as if I went to the Polish Wikipedia and wrote "mathematics" instead of "matematyka". You are correct however in that it takes five seconds to fix; I am therefore confident that it will eventually settle into its proper place, as there are plenty more people here who are aware what is correct that who are unaware. - Hephæstos|§ 04:42, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Books about Swiecin/Swiecino

POlish name used in all books i know is Świecin. SWIECIN. Szopen

What books ?? Could you make a quotation Mestwin 21:36, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Dzieje narodu i panstwa polskiego, wojna 13-letnia, don't remember the author right now. Actually right now i think it may be effect of my ignorance: in book it is called "bitwa pod Swiecinem" - it would be called the same way whether the vilalge would be Swiecino or Swiecin. Apologise, i am going under the table and barking out what i've writtern. But "battle of swiecin" as redirect of course shoudl stay, because once Jimo said something in sense that even mispellings are Ok if they increase google hits. Szopen

Polish name used in all books I know is Świecino, Bitwa pod Świecinem - Swiecino 23:00, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

But I have printed book in which battle is called "of Świecin" or "Żarnowiec".

I have addes 5 books to the 2 existing in the futher reading section and they all say Swiecino Mestwin 21:36, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Google hits about Swiecino

Google: Swiecin 188, Swiecino 14, Świecin 4, Świecino 120.

All the google hits of 'Swiecin' are to the Wikipedia article and to subsidiary sites.

So i guess the names are valid alternatives (if we will have edit war here over name it would even funnier than over Gdansk/Danzig) Szopen

So, why isn't it moved to "Battle of Swiecino" yet?.. The Polish name is Swiecino, therefore the Polish name for the battle would be "Bitwa pod Świecinem" (added Wiki-PL link), so the English name should be Battle of Swiecino. Pibwl 19:16, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Village of Swiecino

• English name: Swiecino
• Polish name: Świecino;
• Kashubian/Pomeranian name: Swiecëno,
• German name: Schwetzin

I don't think anyone here ever questioned that the village is named Swiecino. - Hephaestos|§ 23:59, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nobody questions that the village is called Swiecino, except Haphaestos who makes links like this: Swiecin. The battles are usually named afted the geographical objects. If the we agree that the village is called

Swiecino so the struggle should be called the Battle of Swiecino. Do you agree - Mestwin 21:32, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Every book cited in the reading list is in Polish. This is what I'm trying to get through: the article needs to be named for what the battle is named in English. Looking at a Google search of English-language pages only:

Battle of Swiecin [1] 203 hits. Most of these are not connected to Wikipedia. Battle of Swiecino [2] one hit.

Battles are not exclusively named for the location in which they were fought. - Hephaestos|§ 17:41, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How many of these google hits are produced by this Wikipedia article? battles are usually names after geographical objects (anyway in this case), if we agree that the name of the villages is Swiecino, the Battle should be called the battle of Swiecino. Do you suggest that this tiny village (300 inhabitants) has a separate name that is different from the Polish name. - Mestwin of Gdansk 20:56, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Description of the battle

The desc of the battle needs majot rewrite. I meen the number of forces, conduct of the battle, results of the battle, involvement of Eric of Pomerania. The various sources to use are:

Swiecino 1462

Fought during the 13 years war with the Teutonic Order. The definitive battle that saw the Order reduced into ruin and fall under the might of Polish overlordship. Polish army decides to charge the German Garrison near Swiecino. Assault is successful, 1,000 Germans die, 70 are captured, 200 tabors are taken including all 15 artillery pieces. Polish losses at 100 dead and 150 wounded. After this battle the Order's defenses slowly cracked. In 1463 ships under the Polish insignia of Elbing and Gdansk defeated a German flotilla at Zalewie Wislanym. Puck fell in 1464, Now in 1465. In 1466 Starogard and Chojnice. polisharmies.ds4a.com/greatest1/greatest1.html

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In 1462 Gdansk was relieved by an able commander Piotr Dunin, who with 2,000 troops defeated 2,700 men of the Order at Swiecino near Puck on 17th August. This proved to be the turning point.

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I have rewritten the battle, adding some sections and titles, using 5 books on history and military operations. However I didn't touch the main course of the battle, which requires more work. Mestwin 21:38, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)