Talk:Battle in Berlin

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Contents 1 Mass rape 2 Article name 3 battle for the Reichstag 4 Prelude 5 Polish troops 6 Fair use rationale for Image:PzDM Tiger II berlin.jpg 7 Fair use rationale for Image:PzDM Tiger1 - Berlin.jpg

[edit] Mass rape

... by "vengeful Soviet troops" is of course here to be sure. Fine, but please put this in the proper context and site what exactly Beevor is sayin, not through a chain of newspaper articles about the book. Book is available for search in Google books, btw. --Irpen 06:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The Newspaper article you refer to in the citations to was written by Beevor. --Philip Baird Shearer 07:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Per PBS' request, taking the discussion here. Having two articles named Battle in/of Berlin seems to me awkward and confusing. Since Battle of Berlin must refer to the overall 1945 conquest of eastern Germany, that leaves Battle in Berlin. How about:

• Assault on Berlin / Berlin assault
• Siege of Berlin / Berlin siege
• Storming of Berlin

A parenthetical (1945) could also be added but that's probably not necessary. -- Hongooi 09:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not siege as it was not one, the Soviets were entering Berlin before the investment (military) was finished. The name Storming has POV connotations. Assault is probably the best of the three it is technically accurate but it carries an attackers POV. Hence the reason the that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history#Military conflicts suggests that battle and siege are prefered over terms such as "attack", "slaughter", "massacre", or "raid" --Philip Baird Shearer 10:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I would say that making the distinction clear between this article and Battle of Berlin takes priority over the POV issue. The overarching campaign has a neutral title and that's the one that I guess most people will look at first. -- Hongooi 11:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Lets see what others think, because I think that it is already clear. If it is not, then the first first sentence should makes it so. If you do not think that it does then we should perhaps change the first paragraph so that it is. The other think we have to consider with the name is "Do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles" --Philip Baird Shearer 12:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It's interesting that you should mention the first sentence, because that was what caused my confusion in the first place. It mentions "The battle of Berlin was decided outside the city...", and the switching of "of" for "in" is a subtle enough thing that it wasn't immediately picked up. That led to questions as to why an article on the battle in Berlin was mentioning events taking place outside. I do think a more obviously distinct name is a Good Thing. As for hierarchy, I'm not suggesting anything like "battle of Berlin/Berlin assault" or some other two-level name. -- Hongooi 13:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this article should be moved to Battle for the Berlin Defence Area the trouble is that that introduces a Commonwealth/American English spelling into the title -- what do other think? --Philip Baird Shearer 23:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

After reading the article I had a feeling that the Nazis are the heroes and the Soviets are the bad guys. I think there is a need of change of akcent. Facts need to be interpreted as facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.93.73.244 (talk) 09:02, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] battle for the Reichstag

From the edit history

14:14, 17 July 2007 HanzoHattori (Talk | contribs | block) (55,024 bytes) (okay? there was no a real "battle for reichstag", there was a fight fight for reichstag (too) - maybe now you will understand (and no, "Battle for the city center" was not a separate battle, too)) (undo)

If there was no "battle of the Reichstag" why does a google search return "about 3,070 for "battle for the Reichstag"" It is well sourced that this stage of the battle is known as the Battle for the Reichstag. --Philip Baird Shearer

There was no SEPARATE battle worthy of the header in THIS article. It was "battle" as "fight". Jesus.

Maybe you don't understand, so I'll give you an example we have only "Battle of the Oder-Neisse", but we DON'T have the sub-header for the "Battle of the Seelow Heights". Look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Offensive#Battle_of_the_Oder-Neisse - SEE? --HanzoHattori 06:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, for some reason you put:

In the early hours of the 29 April the Soviets crossed the Moltke bridge and started to fan out into the surrounding streets and buildings. The initial assaults on building, including Ministry of the Interior, were hampered by the lack of supporting artillery. It was not until the damaged bridges were repaired that artillery could be moved up in support. [35] At 04:00 hours, in the Führerbunker, Hitler signed his last will and testament and, shortly afterwards, married Eva Braun.[36][37] At dawn the Soviets pressed on with their assault in the south east. After very heavy fighting they managed to capture the Gestapo headquarters on Prinz-Albrechtstrasse, but a Waffen SS counter-attack forced the Soviets to withdraw from the building.[38] To the south west Chukiov's 8th Guards Army attacked north across the Landwehr canal into the Tiergarten.[39]

in your section of "Battle of the Reichstag". So, the German part of this "speific battle" was Hitler marrying, and the Soviet was the GENERAL attack in various directions? (what I also said already, "Gestapo headquarters" was really the the German Interior Ministry)

Still NO TRACE of the Polish contribution, EVEN in the Battle in Berlin article, where I think they are not mentioned by a SINGLE word. You know what? This is just quite simply outrageous - you removed when I wrote, and you didn't wrote yourself. (Instead you are keen on the redunant flood of "Prelude".) Only because your stupid book is not informed, or Soviet-centric. Amazing.

You censored (removed) my appeal of the administrator intervention previously. So, CAN WE HAVE THE ADMINISTRATOR INTERVENTION NOW, please? (PBS: You REALLY don't own this article, and it's NOT about how you interpret some book or whatever.) --HanzoHattori 07:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This was about this AND the main article. --HanzoHattori 07:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you are confused, the article as of 06:32, 30 July 2007 (an edit made before you wrote the above and for days before) did not have a section entitled "battle for the Reichstag", instead it has a section called "In the city centre".

I am perplexed by you mention of "Gestapo headquarters" was really the the German Interior Ministry. AFAICT the "Gestapo headquarters" was on Prinz-Albrechtstrasse (south of the centre while the Ministry of the Interior was on next to the Moltke Bridge north of the centre on what is now Willy-Brandt-Strasse but used to be Moltkestrasse.[1][2][3]

AFAICT I have not "(removed) [your] appeal of the administrator intervention" where in the edit history did I do that? --Philip Baird Shearer 08:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

As I said on the Talk:Battle of Berlin#Future improvements to the article

If you have reliable sources which mention the Polish contribution then by all means add the details you wish to (with of course citations). Presumably the feat of arms you mention was the Polish First Army because the Second fought in the Prague Offensive. But as the sources I have do not mention the Polish contribution to the fighting in Berlin. Perhaps if you are going to add these details then adding them with citations would be useful for the Polish First Army article as well because at the moment it is sadly lacking many citations. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

--Philip Baird Shearer 08:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prelude

From the history of the article:

14:17, 17 July 2007 HanzoHattori (Talk | contribs | block) (50,751 bytes) ("Battle in Berlin" meas "Battle IN Berlin" ("in" like "inside") - read until you understand, and STOP COPY-PASTING from OTHER articles (including main articles))

It is not I who is "COPY-PASTING from OTHER articles" into this article. It is you who have deleted information that was already in this article before you ever edited it (see Revision as of 05:30, 16 July 2007 diffed with Revision as of 14:19, 17 July 2007)

Please read Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history#Battle it suggests that the article should have four sections:

The article can be structured along these lines:

1. The background. Why did it take place? Which campaign did it belong to? What happened previously?

2. The prelude. What forces were involved? How did they arrive at the battleground? Was there a plan?

3. A description of the battle. What tactics were used?

4. The aftermath. Who won, if anyone? What were the casualties? Was there a pursuit or followup? What happened next? How did the battle affect the course of the war?

Please stop deleting the prelude --Philip Baird Shearer 17:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I repeat please stop deleting the prelude --Philip Baird Shearer 08:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I repeat stop inserting. Practically nothing of this is about "battle in Berlin" - it's all in the main article ("of Berlin"), where is its place. --HanzoHattori 12:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Articles should be stand alone, and battle articles need a "Prelude" (see above Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history#Battle) --Philip Baird Shearer 12:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polish troops

The article ignores the participation of Polish troops. Source: Meanwhile, the 1st Army was taking part in the Berlin operation. [...] The following units took part in the attack on Berlin, which was happening simultaneously: the 1st Infantry Division, the 2nd Brigade of Howitzer Artillery and the 1st Independent Mortar Brigade. The troops of the 1st Infantry Division fought in the central sector of Berlin's defences, seizing the Technical University, the Tiergarten underground station and the Tiergarten park (the Zoo), entering the rear areas of the Reichstag and the Reich's Chancellery.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

It needs reliable sources before it can be added to the article. Unfortunately the sources I have do not include the Polish contribution within the city. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know this article is called "A summary of some book(s) as interpreted by Philip Baird Shearer". But now I do. --HanzoHattori 12:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Just look at my post above, where I have an external link to a reliable article, published on the pages of the Association "Polish Community". You can find more by reading books such as Race for the Reichstag: The 1945 Battle for Berlin by Tony Le Tissier. Plenty of other refs have been preseted at Talk:Battle_of_Berlin#Polish_participation. See also Berlin 1945: The Final Reckoning By Karl Bahm. And if you can, go for the Poles in the Battle of Berlin by Stanislaw Komornicki and Piotr Borowy, translated by Andrzej Zielinski - Ministry of National Defence [4]. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  13:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Then please add what you wish. Do you have the dates when they captured their objectives, as it would make it easier to slot into the text which is broadly in chronological order? --Philip Baird Shearer 16:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I was hoping that you, as the main contributor, would chose the most relevant fact and add them. Over the coming weeks, I will look into that matter (my university seems to have a copy of both Komornicki & Borowy and Bahm book).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Ironically, the article has a picture with the caption "Polish flag in Berlin", without mentioning the role of Polish troops or even the very fact of Polish participation in the battle at all. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PzDM Tiger II berlin.jpg

Image:PzDM Tiger II berlin.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PzDM Tiger1 - Berlin.jpg

Image:PzDM Tiger1 - Berlin.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)