Talk:Barbarian
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Barbarian has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
[edit] Please note
It is very hard to write an article on barbarians without NPOV disputes. 18:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Whirlwinding
I don't know if that is a real word, but I doubt it...
Also: the entire paragraph reads like realultimatepower.net
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.250.6.246 (talk) 10:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] NPOV
I wonder about the NPOVness of this article. Was it written by someone qualified in anthropology? Michael Hardy 22:49 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)
It's not so much a question here of anthropology as of history and etymology - the article accurately reflects the development of the term and its historical usage. Maybe it needs to include something on the revival of the "barbarian" in Twentieth-Century heroic fantasy for the sake of completeness though. What are you having NPOV problems with? Rüdiger
[edit] Parasites of Civilization
im sorry but saying that it is 'non perjorative' to call a buncch of people 'parasites of civilization' is patently stupid. who wrote this garbage? pretending that it is npov is even stupider.
civilization is often a parasite of the 'barbaians', if you consider history, for example the african slave trade, or the way raw materials are often extracted from poor countries by the wealthy by force
- A more careful reader of the entry will see that the contrast is between "barbarian" and "nomad," and that the term "parasite" is being used in its narrowest, most specific sense, not as a pejorative tarbrush. General critiques of civilization might be more useful in entries like Power politics. --Wetman 17:06, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- This article seriously SHOULD be purged of the stupidity. 'Barbarian' is nothing more than a derogatory term used by the greeks and romans, to signify those they considdered less 'civilised. Most, and in fact I would go so far as to claim all, civilisations indicated by the Romans as 'barbarian' were NOT 'parasites' off of civilisation, but self sufficient communities of farmers. Some of the most valued commodities available in Rome, Terra Cotta for instance, were 'barbarian' products. Robrecht 3 July 2005 15:07 (UTC)
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- (Not a post contributed by a reader of the article, it appears. --Wetman 21:22, 26 August 2005 (UTC))
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[edit] Barbaria
When I first read the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, I was struck by the fact that several regions of Africa were labelled as "Barbaria". While it can be shown that this is simply an early form of the more familiar Berbers -- & is clearly a homonym with its own different origins -- I have to wonder how the phonetic clash of these two nouns influenced the popularity in Classical times of the word "Barbarian" over its probable competitors. I'd add something to the article about this, but I'm unaware of any linguistic work on this probable connection.
- The modern translation linked from the Wikipedia article employs the phrase in Ch. ii "country of the Berbers". "Berber" is a Greek-derived term, not what the Berber people have called themselves (autonym), and its direct connection to "barbarian" in the specific, narrowly Hellenic sense is pretty generally agreed upon and always referred to in any general discussion of Berbers. --Wetman 21:22, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Chinese words for "barbarians"
I earlier added information about the Chinese words for 'barbarian' because as it stood the reference was too vague. However, there is reason to question the identification of the Chinese words with the Greek word 'barbarian'. It is a little like the traditional equating of the Western and Oriental dragons or Western and Oriental phoenixes -- it's not clear that they are exactly the same thing. Perhaps an article on the Chinese concept of 'barbarians' is in order.
Bathrobe 17:27, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
- Not identical, of course, because nothing ever is. But comparable, and a worthwhile addition quite germane to the subject. Like most Wikipedia readers, I have no idea what the specific, literal meanings would be. Can Bathrobe parse the Chinese expressions for the article? I mean, what are their absolutely literal meanings: "outsider" "not a villager" etc etc) --Wetman 21:22, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Dubious Greeks and Semites" assertion
This seems like a personal fantasy:
- "Barbarian was originally a Greek term applied to Semitic peoples such as Jews, Arabians, or North Africans speaking Semitic languages wherein consonants are frequently seperated by the broad "a" sound. Mocking the way the languages sounded, the Greeks started referring to the Semites as "βαρβαρoι" pronounced "varvarroy" (singular "βαρβαρoς" pronounced "varvarrōs") The term gradually began to be used in regard to all foreigners as the Greeks mocked the alleged attempts by outsiders to speak a "real" language."
I wouldn't want to stigmatize this as irresponsible drivel. Is it very widely agreed upon? --Wetman 10:52, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Removing, exanding 1st paragraph
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- Barbarian was originally a Greek term applied to any foreigner, one not sharing a recognized culture or language with the speaker or writer employing the term. The word expressed with mocking duplication ("bar-bar") alleged attempts by outsiders to speak a "real" language. A "barbarism" in language, especially Greek or Latin, is a misformed word, such as a solecism or a malapropism. Related terms are barbaric and barbarous.
I'm replacing this - which seems a bit off the mark - with some longwinded rambling on the earlier Greek uses of the term. I'll put some refs up tomorrow. Sorry about that dubious second heading.
Maybe an analogy could be made between Roman and Chinese uses of words to refer to unconquered/unconquerable peoples on the other side of the border. Flounderer 14:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Barbarian
The 1941 German invasion of Russia was called Operation Barbarrossa; Barbarrossa was a German king otherwise known as "red beard" barbar rossa so barbarians are people with beards. R.Kyle.
- R. Kyle: that's not likely. There was indeed a Latin word barba, "beard" (from PIE *bhardha-, "beard") but barbarian derives from Ancient Greek barbaros, "barbarian", and it is recorded that bar-bar (cf. PIE *baba-, a form imitative of unarticulated or indistinct speech) was an expression that ancient Greeks used to deride the speech of non-Greeks. And since beards were actually standard among adult male ancient Greeks (as opposed to beardlessness being the standard among Romans), the "beard" explanation doesn't make sense. Alexander 007 00:37, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Savages
"Savage" redirects to this page, but there is almost no discussion on this page of the notion of savagery, which is more a product of Western Europe and Christian thought. Ok to add it to this page, or should savage have its own page proper? (Ethan Mitchell, forgetting to sign in 14:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC))
[edit] Barbarians = Germanic tribes.
The term Barbarian in Western civilization goes back to ancient Greece and Rome. In ancient Rome, and as a result in Latin countries, the term Barbarian was and is especially linked to the North of Europe and to the Germanic and Celtic tribes that inhabited it. The amount of the article devoted to this point is a clear violation of NPVO.
Bruce wright I'm not sure what your point is. There is too much of the article that doesn't refer to the usuage you mention? I was about to add "Celtic" peoples to the list of those considered "barbarians" and then began to think about whether "Germanic" fit at all. The latter term is, I think, later than Greek usuage. So I would like to hear a bit more about the subject. For the moment I added "Celtic" since there were clear references to the "Keltoi" by Greek classical authors. In looking at other pages related to "Germanic" I have really begun to wonder about the issue of when the term "Germanic" arose. Is there Greek usuage of the term prior to its use in later Roman times? I hope someone can help with this.
[edit] Lewis Henry Morgan
I added a link to the Wikipedia article on Lewis Henry Morgan, who, in his Ancient Society, defined three major stages of human evolution. His terminology and assumptions are not now scientifically accepted, but furnish insight into the non-pejorative use of the terms "savage" and "barbarian".
- About the latin origin: Barbarus can also mean "Born in a foreign country" (?)
- No. Another mistaken etymology, from barba was moved to Notes: the reference appended to it was actually concerned with explaining it was spurious. --Wetman 20:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ethnogenesis
This article needs a discussion of barbarians and ethnicity ("ethnogenesis"). There is a substantial amount of racist and nationalistic scholarship on the web and on Wikipedia surrounding the ethnicity of "barbarians" (Goths, Huns, Anglo-Saxons, etc..) and their connections with modern day peoples and nations (Modern Turks in particular about the Huns and German romantic notions about the Goths are rife throughout Wikipedia). I started a sub-section about the barbarian ethnicity question at ethnogenesis but I think it needs a longer treatment, either here or in a new article. -- Stbalbach 13:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] RfC
I have started an RfC on the usage of the term Barbarian at wikipedia. Please leave your opinion on this matter HERE<< link. - WeniWidiWiki 19:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sources
This article cites almost no sources. There are plenty of citations of usage of the term, "barbarian", but this is not tantamount to supporting statements with documented sources as specified in the policy page: Wikipedia:Verifiability. The etymology section, for example, proposes a certain derivation of the term that I have encountered before, but could be mere speculation for all I know. Erickroh 15:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Result of RfC
There was recently a RfC regarding the proper use of the word "barbarian." Arguments were made arguing for the word to not be used, and also arguing that it is appropriate to use the word. The consensus of the discussion was as follows:
Use specific tribe/nation names whenever possible. When this is not possible, use the word "barbarian," - making every effort to place the word in the proper historical context.
This is not an official wikipedia policy, guideline, or recommendation - it is a consensus reached by editors of this page in conversation with uninvolved 3rd parties. While an RfC is not binding, it would help avoid edit warring and further conflicts if all involved can stay relatively close to this guideline, and discuss any variation from it. Pastordavid 23:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] origion of term
I guess bar-bar-ian comes not from a simplistic bar-bar of foreginers (I know no other example of such a way of calling foreigners according to some 'mis-sounds'), rather it comes from the word varos/varius which might had a greek double perfect: var-var-os/ var-var-ius, which could happen in ancient greek, meaning "different". The Greek letter B (Beta) could have been pronounced also like a V, like the phoenician letter the greeks borrowed from.
[edit] Article is a Farce
Hi, the article on the word Barbarian is comical. I think it may have been a joke, but people looking for a good article on the term Barbarians and Barbarism are out of luck currently. Is there anyway to go back to the old version of the article, if there was a factual one. Thanks.
- Something more like this may be more to his taste.--Wetman 03:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Barbarians and the Berbers of North Africa
There is a historical link to the name of the Berbers and the Greco-Roman term Barbarian. Some of the most notorious Barbarians were the Germanic tribes. They were such a plague to the settled world that part of them - the Vandals - became synonimous with the word Barbarian. After their long, violent and destructive migration through Europe, the Vandals finally settled in North Africa. Hence the name Barbaria (Berberia) - land of the Barbarians.
The descendants of the Germanic Barbarians can best be seen in present English football hooliganism or in the behaviour of hordes of Germanic speaking Westerners while on cheap holidays in the South of Europe.
[edit] Latin origin
In the second section it says tat the latin Barbaria came from the latin Barbarius. How can that be? Wardhog 18:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] pejorative terms and their denotations
Although people can certainly say that terms like 'barbarian', 'primitive', and 'savage' were applied very politically and cruelly to general groups of people as stereotypes, they imply an actual meaning, which doesn't even necessarily have negative connotations, except by the interpretation of the reader. For instance there have been tribes that have been called 'primitive', but that itself may not even be seen as an insult or a problem, since the culture of many groups often involves a conscious attempt to stay close to nature, and use minimal (or 'primitive') amount of development (i'm sure nomads could have lived in cities if they had the will to do so). Europeans used 'savage' to describe their own actions sometimes (in war) as much as they sometimes referred to people as savages (which I believe is derived from the fact that nature is considered a 'savage' (untamed) environment in which to live especially if one isn't accustomed--although was adopted into a pejorative to suggest as much that the people fit in with the nature of the environment (and sometimes they did)).
As far as 'barbarian' goes, the connotations have definitely taken over the meaning of the term, but it also does have a specific meaning, and even the second definition in the article isn't always meant as a pejorative as the article claims. For example, the word 'barbarism' had entered philosophical discourse, where Hegel criticized other philosophers for using 'barbarisms'--or classifications which were based on cutting things up crudely, rather than based on a sense of order created by internal necessity. 'Civilization' though is often used as a positive term, more plainly referred to the type of societies that were characterized by being centered around cities, though I don't think that was the most important feature. I think, for instance you could argue that no nation today constitutes a 'civilization' that the term feels anachronistic in that sense, although 'civilization' still can refer to an area of settlement as opposed to non-settlement. The model for the term civilization is societies in antiquity whose culture and institutions centered around a mythos, which is what led them to being independent as cultures and led to them clashing. 'Barbarians' as the Greeks referred to them typically I think picked up a lot of the stereotypes they did because the societies they were referring to weren't as much based on the type of institutions greeks saw as purposeful.
Of course, the cruelty to all of these terms is stereotypes and the fact that they prevent a deeper understanding of different cultures. But in all of this, we shouldn't forget the reason words have certain currency and use in language. First of all, I think this leads us to an equally unfair view of those who use these terms as those who they were applied to. The greek people may have been wrong to have this certain arrogance, but they had it for their own reasons, just like other cultures behaved as they did for their own reasons. Also, its not necessarily productive that when anyone uses the term civilization or barbarian to start lecturing them. Believe it or not, its not a common belief anymore that everyone who isn't in Western culture is a stupid savage, so you're really talking past people who aren't intending to use the words that way.
[edit] Significant Barbarian History and Role in Human Development
The main historical significance of the article "Barbarian" has been utterly dodged, or else ignored. There is no mention of the horrendous contribution of the Barbarian. It goes as thus: Rome declined when barbarian hordes overran western Europe, which caused the whole Western intellectual world to collapse. The writings and text of Greek intellectuals were destroyed, or lost. And there was nothing to fill the void and thus took centuries for another intellectual rising to occur. Meanwhile the Christianization of Europe took place to fill this void, along with the literal interpretation of the Bible; the coming of judgement day; and the second coming of Christ. For Christians (i.e. Barbarians), there was no longer any interest in secular knowledge, and the desire to investigate natural phenomenon dissappeared. This is an account of the greatest intellectual darkness in history which had swept over the Christian world. It wasn't until the twelfth century that a revival of Aristotelian thought had emerged, and as a result, Aristolelian thought had become welded with Christian theology-- That to doubt one part, was to doubt the whole. Then came Roger Bacon (1214-1292) and later Copernicus (1473-1543) who contributed heavily to the elimination of this newly developed interest of the Christian which set human intellect back several centuries and still continues to this day. Finally, to determine whether or not Conan was a cool Barbarian is not fully realized until we know of his true past. I'm a new member and this is my first post. Thanks. --Funbangers 19:29, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
- Seems like a pretty simplified view of the barbarians and Christianity. I presume that Socrates, who was on a mission from God in his own words, was a secular thinker? Just one of the many oddities I find in your message... Srnec 04:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. But yes, very simple, indeed. One of the key roles barbarians had in human history was revolutionary, or perhaps, de-evolutionary for NPOV reasons, in the early intellectual climate of human beings. Socrates own words? Socrates God wasn't a Christian... nor even a literal interpretion or reflection of man (now that would be absurd). I'm curious about the other oddities you've found too. Also, what really happened back then? Thanks Funbangers 16:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
