Talk:Axis mundi
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[edit] Bodhi Tree
To my knowledge there is not the concept of axis mundi widely accepted in buddhism. In any case bodhi trees are not considered to possess any such metaphysical significance, it's simply the tree under which Buddha happened to have gained enlightenment. I have thus removed the reference to bodhi trees as the axis mundi in buddhism.
- It seems implausible to think of the location of the Buddha's enlightenment as being a mere incidental detail. The name of the tree provides the very name of the Buddha, after all. It is, I think, a mistake to think of details in mythology as incidental by-the-ways. These symbols are rich and full of significance.
- I'm a little confused by your comment that the Bodhi tree "provides the very name of the Buddha, after all," given that Buddha is simply Sanskrit or Prakrit for "awakened one," and Bodhi is Sanskrit or Prakrit for "awakening." Really, the life of the Buddha "provides the name of the Bodhi tree," if anything. That said, maybe the Bodhi tree does serve a psychological role analogous to the Axis Mundi in indigenous religions (though I'm not very familiar with the concept behind Axis Mundi.) Is the role of the Bodhi tree as being analogous to the Axis Mundi of other religions commonly accepted among experts?
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You can't draw a line and say 'This tree is a world centre and this tree isn't.' Any tree mentioned prominently in a story or shown in an image will suggest the axis mundi role. In some instances the symbolism is just more developed than others. No, the bodhi tree does not have the same role in Buddhism that, say, the World Ash does in Scandinavian myth. It functions as an attribute of the Buddha. The tree suggests that the Buddha himself is the axis mundi.
Which he is. The figure of a medidating person is a world axis image--as my original, more comprehensive article pointed out. I began with mountains, worked down to columns and trees and temples, and ended with the human being as axis mundi.
It was a carefully ordered discussion but I see now that only a bleeding stump of it remains. Freddie Kruger has been busy on this article.
Alton.arts
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[edit] Merger discussion
- I'm not aware of a World Tree in Buddhism, despite the importance of trees in symbolism. That said, I would not want to see a "World Tree" article combined with "Axis Mundi," as the Axis Mundi is one version of a "World Tree" myth archetype. That would be like combining combining the article on the "Trickster" archetype with the article on "Loki." Several cultures have a World Tree-like myth, including the Mayans, which is enough reason to see one article about World Trees in general, and seporate articles about individual myths like the Mayan tree. Kevingarcia 22:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- imo you've got it backwards here- the axis mundi is not one version of the world tree, but the world tree is one version of the axis mundi archetype. the axis mundi manifests as a staff, a tree, a vine, a ladder, etc in various cultures; it is what ties the worlds together and that through which one travels between the worlds. accordingly, it would seem that the world tree, one form of this, is in fact a subset of axis mundi. so it would be more like putting loki into trickster than trickster into loki.
- although i don't have strong feelings either way regarding the merger, the world tree article does sort of seem unecessary. Sort of like having an article on "Hungarian trickster myths". On the other hand, if the article can be more than a list and more than a simple redundancy of what is in this article, then it should stand on its own- as should hungarian trickster myths, were that the case.
- --Heah talk 07:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
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- At the same time, you could hardly call the Mayan tree a version of the Greek Axis Mundi. Because the name "Axis Mundi" is Greek in origin and refers to a Greek myth, I would not use it as the base term (unless all other trees were inspired by the Greek original). Because that is not the case, I would rather use a region-nuetral term like "World Tree" to refer to similar myths in different and unrelated parts of the world. Similarly the Great Flood page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28mythology%29 ) is not called "the Genesis Flood" or "Noah's Flood" because it refers to more than just the Judeo-Christian story. Kevingarcia 22:35, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't understand the connection between the language of the term and the cultural-specificity of the term that you are making. Using your logic, wouldn't "World Tree" or "Great Flood" only be applicable to versions from English-speaking cultures? BTW, "axis mundi" appears to be Latin in origin from the period when the initial scholarship was done, though we could certainly move it to "world axis" if that appears to be a consensus, though "axis mundi" certainly seems to be the more common version. It is thus not a case of Greek vs Mayan, but if the world tree cosmological concept is a subset of the world axis cosmological concept. From everything I know of the subject, admittedly being no expert, the answer is yes. - BanyanTree 23:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Fair enough. I can't claim to speak either Latin or Greek (and after I'd signed off the computer it donned on me that I called a Latin phrase "Greek"). My point though was not the language but religious connotations. My understanding - and I am no expert either - was that the term "axis mundi" came from a pre-Christian belief in Europe, one of those brought from Greece into Rome. "World Tree" is certainly an English phrase, but is not directly connected to any faith in that sense. It is a phrase used by later researches to describe concepts from various older religions. My basic question though is: does the phrase "axis mundi" properly describe Wacah Chan and Yggdrasil? Kevingarcia 03:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Axis mundi is a academic term. I first came across it in a survey course of world relgion reading Mircea Eliade. It is not connected with any particular culture or region, as is clear from the article. If you wish to use as the basis of your argument that "axis mundi" refers only to some specific region, I would need to see sources that state this, as I reject the assertion on its face.
- Within Europe, the Middle East, and India it appears to have originated in the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European religion of the early bronze age, way before the Greeks emerged. However, there are numerous examples that independently emerged throughout the world, as is clear fromthe article. The world tree that shows up as Yggdrassil, Jievaras, and other world trees originates with this earlier religion. - BanyanTree 13:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I submit to your valid points. I still feel that non-Western cultures should be included in any World Tree/Axis Mundi article, but the title of the article, clearly, could go either way. So "Axis Mundi" is fine with me. Kevingarcia 07:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Indigineous Peoples
I understand what you mean about shamanic practices, but it is wrong to say it plays a more excplicit role with indigineous peoples. The statment doesn't make any sense, indigineous peoples is just a term to connote a group of people who were native to a given land, without any reference to the area you are talking about there is no such thing as indigineous. The indigineous peoples of some areas do not even have shamanic practices.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:27, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- I also understand your point, but i think people understand what is meant when the term "indigenous peoples" is used here. Saying something like "primitives" would perhaps more properly denote what is meant, but of course there's a million reasons we can't use that word.
- For lack of a proper word, perhaps the "indigenous" reference can simply be left out? ie, "often plays a more explicit role in cultures with animist backgrounds and/or utilizing shamanic practices"? that seems to get the point across without introducing innacuracies . . . So i'm going to put that in. Sound ok?
- --He:ah? 05:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
======Axis Mundi on a Buddhist Stupa The Axis Mundi is located at the top of a Stupa where the umbrella is formed to promote the notion of the merging between heaven and earth.
[edit] Axis Mundi in a Sacred/Profane Context
I'm wondering if it would be helpful to make more mention in the article of the axis mundi concept as it relates to secular modern society. Eliade's work on the Sacred and Profane would be an excellent jumping off point, and I think is important as young readers (just remembering back to my first crack at Eliade in a Performance Studies class at uni) try to understand the concept from an ancient/indigenous/religious perspective. --user:nhansen
[edit] "All cultures?"
The "background" section states that the axis mundi occurs in "all cultures." This seems to be a pretty extreme blanket statement, espescially without any sort of attribution. I would lean towards its removal or qualification in absence of very solid source material. Bolddeciever (talk) 23:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, but the problem is spread throughout the entire article. I've flagged the article for now as I'm unsure of how to proceed next. Almost every claim in the body could be flagged for requiring a citation, but that's moot because the entire thing reads as if it was written from within a fictional universe. This thing requires a major re-write, but I don't feel comfortable attempting that task myself. Matt Deres (talk) 02:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree as well. From what I have learnt from anthropology materials I do not believe it occurs in all cultures. Besides that its a very "American Centric" viewpoint. I believe anthropologist from other parts of the world may disagree with such genralizational statements. I agree this article needs some major re-write but its a huge and complicated artcicle that I dont feel comfortible attempting the task myself either. The person (or persons) who originally wrote the article should start giving citation of their sources. Alot of it I feel is suspicious information comming from pop culture fiction and not from athropological academic sources.
-Bill- January 24, 2008
Odd. You say the text needs citations but seem never to have checked the sources already mentioned in the citations.
The base article was essentially mine. I expanded the original entry I found, showing more applications and citing references. My intention has been to return to the entry and document each detail more thoroughly. My plan has been to use Mircea Eliade's books as the main source material together with the French studies I cited. I will not be able to get to that before summer 2008, but I have the materials assembled and their content is reflected in what I've provided so far.
Bill: familiarity with Eliade's books and the scholars cited in the article will put to rest any suspicions about "pop culture fiction." As the Penguin guide was written by French scholars and Mircea Eliade was a Romanian scholar doing research on Hindu shrines, it will also ameliorate your concerns about an "American centrism."
That said, the article that remains today is a bloody stump of what I originally provided. The references have been chopped out, numerous examples cut, at least three illustrations cut, a cross-cultural list of examples cut, and the entire last half of the discussion missing. An effort that started as an invigorating launch into vast seas and broad horizons now leaves me feeling a bit like the protagonist of Hemingway's 'The Old Man and The Sea.'
I appreciate all participants' interest in and discussion of this article. I take every suggestion seriously and would make use of these in preparing a more thorough version. Before proceeding, though, I will now want some assurances that any article I take the trouble to submit again will get some protection from the drive-by feeding frenzy. Comparative religions is a fascinating area, but sharing information here is doomed to failure unless we build a hedge against those who simply dislike seeing their favourite religion compared to anything.
-- Alton
Alton.arts 2008 March 12
To Alton: Mircea Eliade has been criticize by academics. You can read wikipedia submission of him and the academic criticism of his works. Anthropologist Alice Kehoe has criticize his work on shamanism (see Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exploration in Critical Thinking) No it doesnt put aside any suspicion of pop culturalism.
Alton said "...sharing information is doomed to failure unless we build a hedge against those who simply dislike seeing their favorite religion compared to anything."
First of all I dont think this is necessarily the case here. I believe criticism should be allow. The article becomes nothing but POV, unbalance or becomes ones own personal propaganda if criticism isnt allowed. (There are many wikipedia articles with criticism in them.) Furthermore I'm against any forms of censorship. And or cyber bullying.
[As for American centricism I could just as well said Western centricism (for a lack of better word at the time). I suppose ethnocentricism might be a better word to have used.]
Second of all I ask: Whose culture is examining/investigating/labeling/judging another culture? Who is doing the comparison? Your putting on rose tinted glasses looking at another culture (one still carries all the unconcious or concious conditioning of one's environment, societal values, biases, religious upbringing etc). Its still centric regardless and is subject to biases and filtering. Thats my point.
--Bill
2008, June 11
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[edit] "Axis Mundi"?
I would like to know where does this term originate? I am sceptical that all cultural anthropologists uses this term. I believe it may only be Michael Harner (or at least he started this term) that uses this term?
-Bill-
January 24, 2008
The term is standard.
Scholars have a habit of assigning Latin names to objects they study: meitosis, solar plexus, Tyrannosaurus rex. In this case the object of study is a symbol. Axis = axis, center. Mundi = world.
An investigation of the scholarly non-Michael Harner literature on this subject will show the term to be in common use.
Also see the discussion above.
Alton
Alton.arts 2008 March 12
I'm not looking for the Latin meaning of the term but rather specificaly which anthropologist came up with the term. I am still suspicious wether the term is used by All anthropologists (not to say wether Russian, Chinese etc anthropologists also uses this term). I would be curious to know.
--Bill-- 2008 June 10
[edit] Eternal or Not, A Return
Hey, the article came back. Thanks!
Praise be to whatever Wiki gods there be.
I'll plan to get some more references in this, including the Eliade sources.
Alton Alton.arts
- We can, I think, be quite sure the cutting of the article was an accident that happened while an editor refined the caption to the image in the lead, so I simply went into the article history and restored the lost stuff by copying and pasting from an older version. Since your work was there to be found, be assured that no thanks are necessary. 86.44.19.25 (talk) 03:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Sources
As for sources I would like to see a diverse number of sources and not from a single source and sources from anthropologists kindly.
I believe a diverse number of opinions are also needed in this article. -Bill-
2008, June, 10
