Talk:Athens Polytechnic uprising
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[edit] Peasants involved in the uprising
I deleted the word peasants. There were no peasants at the Athens Polytechnic uprising. The term "workers,peasants and students" is a cliche but looks too politicaly correct and most of all has nothing to do with truth. The fact is that the military junta had many followers between the peasants since the "donation" of all farmers loans.
Even if some farmers wanted to participate at the uprising that would be very difficult since there were no peasants in Athens and the events were really fast.
I think that there should be a seperate article on the junta of the Colonels. I can help, but my knowledge is rather limited. Or is there one already??
- As the documetory films of this day show and the audio as well, in the Polytechnic School arrived representatives from the farmers uprising in Megara City as well as worker representatives from different unions -legal or illegal by that time. So, massive "peasants and workers" participation in the Polytechic School itself is not recorded but those days the whole country was on the move against Junda. Dkace 19:37, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Collapse of the Junta
The Greek military junta was not really overthrown, but collapsed a little later under the weight of its unpopularity, incompetence, and, most important of all, its Cyprus failed coup attempt. It is arguable that the Polytechnic uprising quickened the junta collapse by dispelling the pretense of popular acceptance of the junta's democratization plans, which would probably have maintained an active role for the military in public affairs. Dianelos 07:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
- The Greek military regime collapsed after a "national disaster", just like the Argentine military regime and the Portuguese military regime. The respective "national disasters" were the invasion of Cyprus by the Turks in 1974, the re-conquest of the Falklands by the British in 1982 and the loss of the colony of Angola in 1974. (The latter involves the withdrawal of the Portuguese from the country, rather than a conflict, but the built-up radicalisation of the officer corps in the Portuguese army was the crucial factor in the overthrow of Salazar.) In so many words, the Greek military regime was quite powerful in 1973 and no "outside" force, such as student uprisings, politicians' protests, international condemnation, etc, could remove the junta from power. It is true that Papadopoulos was aware of the political impasse reached by his regime, and this is why he sought a "normalisation" of Greek politics through Markezinis. But, except for another military coup (as actually happened), nobody could remove him. Whether the Greek colonels were "unpopular" or "corrupt", and to what extent, is indeed irrelevant to the balance of power in 1973. The Gnome 11:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Students of the Athens Polytechnic killed during the uprising
This is one of the most controversial topics regarding the uprising: although several civilians (some of them children and even the case of an infant!) are documented having been killed in the crossfire of the Polytechnic uprising, there is no documented reference to any actual students of the Athens Polytechnic killed at the time. Despite this, in popular opinion tens (or even hundreds!) of students of Athens Polytechnic were killed. This claim has occasionally appeared in the Wikipedia artice too. Yet, this is not the case, and it does not pay homage to the memory of those who were actually killed to fabricate ficticious victims. It is interesting to note that every year on November 17 wreaths are lain on a monument within the Polytechnic that inscribes the names Athens Polytechnic students who were killed while fighting for freedom -- not in 1973, as there were none then -- but during the resistance in the 1940s. If anyone can provide verifiable references to Athens Polytechnic students who were killed during the Polytechnic uprise, please post them and I will acknowledge my error. But please refrain from any ad hominem attacks, I am only trying to set the record staight. Rastapopoulos 08:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
- There has been no official enquiry by a commission appointed by the Greek government, subsequently to the 1973 events. There is no official list of casualties. On the other hand, there have been numerous claims about killings, by people who submit they were participants in the uprising, witnesses to it, or well-informed about the events. A number of books appeared, after the fall of the military regime, containing pictures and personal data of various persons presumed to have died in the course of the uprising, such as student Diomedes Komninos. The consensus, even among supporters of the military regime, appears to be that people have indeed been killed, but the actual number and the circumstances of their death vary. Nonetheless, some officers of the army were convicted for crimes perpetrated during the uprising, such as Brig. Gen. Nicholaos Dertilis for shooting Michalis Myroyannis who was running away from a group of policemen (his own driver testified against him), in the trials subsequently held. The Gnome 12:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- rastapopoulos: i dont think theres any well documented evidence on the issue. from what i know (i.e. what i ve been told, read in secondary sources etc) we can only be sure that some people were killed during the events (more or less what is written in the article)- whether these people were literally inside the polytechneio or not, how many they where etc i really dont know. when i return i ll search for more, but i dont think i ll find anything more than what is in the article. --Greece666 00:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- It was never an issue whether the people killed in the uprising were students or not. The police was shooting to kill randomly in the streets of athens at that time, and this resulted in a number of deaths, although the exact number is disputed. That's a fact. The only reason to say that there was no student killed is to support the junta's official version that police was defending itself against 'anarchist elements' attacking police officers. This of course is a lie, as everybody knows that police snipers in nearby buildings were shooting to people at random. the article has few more problems
- 1. "1973 found the junta under Papadopoulos having undertaken a "liberalisation" process of the regime, which included the release of political prisoners and the partial lifting of censorship, as well as promises of a new constitution and new elections for a return to civilian rule. This created a power vacuum for leftist and generally democratic elements to undertake political action against the junta". "Liberalisation" created a 'power vacuum'? in what sense?
The answer about the victims of the 17th of November 1973 can be found on the 14/10/1974 findings of the prosecutor Mr Tsevas who has been put in charge by the goverment, in order to find what happened that night. His report is full and complete in order to provide all the facts of that night along with the name of the victims.
- Any links, please? Or, if the text is not yet online, any sources that can be cited? The Gnome 12:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Manufacturer and model of the tank
Anyone knows them, to include them in the article?
- The tanks were the French-built AMX-30
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- A poor joke.. The military also call it "the student", because it made it in the polytechnic. A very bad joke.. The Tank however is actually kept inside the Centre of Training for Armored Unit Warfare in Avlonas (ΚΕΤΘ), in a small space designated as an armored unit museum, that is unfortunately not open to non military personel. They have also placed a relevant sign there, pledging the army's allegiance to the republic. I have seen it myself, so i took the liberty of correcting "reportedly kept". I was also the first to report on the type of the tank. I thought it was important because it seems many people believe it was a M48, US-made, Tank. I have heard that in the past young officers would be shown an M48, told it is the one, and order to attend to it, wash it etc. Military folklore I guess.
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[edit] Citations needed
I would like to see some references regarding the following claims: 1. "According to a contested official invertigation..."- A source indicating (a) who it has been contested by, (b) on what grounds. Also, is there reason to believe that the views of those "contesting" the official investigation are being given undue weight? 2. "several civilians were left severely injured" - A list of these people, and a definition of "severe" would be helpful. 3. "...Ioannidis, a disgruntled Junta hardliner..." - A source identifying Ioannidis as a hardliner, and a source indicating that he was "disgruntled" (rather than, say, "overjoyed at the chance of assuming control"). 85.75.72.50 21:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
