Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wulfgar (Forgotten Realms)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There are few arguments for outright keeping of the article, and given the suggested merge destination has been deleted (Companions of the Hall), I can only take the arguments to merge as arguments to delete. It should also be noted the article lacks any reliable sources, an argument raised in this discussion which has not been addressed. I am happy to userfy this if requested - as Companions of the Hall was prod-deleted, it can be resurrected fairly easily, and a merge could be done. Neil ☎ 09:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wulfgar (Forgotten Realms)

Wulfgar (Forgotten Realms) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Non-notable fictional character. {{prod}} removed by User:71.108.52.19 without comment, so listing for AfD. Mikeblas 14:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Wulfgar was the intended main character of perhaps the most famous Forgotten Realms trilogy, the one that was responsible for the introduction of the most famous Forgotten Realms character. Among the top tier of notable Forgotten Realms characters (only Drizzt and Elminster are clearly more notable). I'll work on finding sources if that's a concern. Powers ^T 14:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. That is the concern; just appearing in a novel isn't notable. Reliable and substantial secondary sources are required; see WP:FICT. -- Mikeblas 15:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
    • It's important to distinguish between sourcing concerns and notability concerns. You seem to be conflating the two, and I'm still not sure which one is primary. Powers ^T 16:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to Companions of the Hall, which is currently quite stubby and would do well as a place to put good descriptions of each of the characters (other than Drizzt, who should keep having a separate article as a more important character that appears in more books/games/etc.). Pinball22 14:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

19:50, 5 November 2007 The-G-Unit-Boss (Talk | contribs) deleted "Companions of the Hall" ‎ (Expired PROD, concern was: non-notable group of fictional characters.)

• Merge and Redirect per above. JJL 16:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and/or Merge as above. BOZ 19:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Additional: As a significant character of the Forgotten Realms novels, Wulfgar appeared as a major character in the three novels of The Icewind Dale Trilogy, The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, and The Halfling's Gem, by R. A. Salvatore. He also made an appearance in The Legacy, the first book of Salvatore's Legacy of the Drow series. BOZ 16:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and/or Merge — Notable character within the context of a notable game setting. — RJH (talk) 22:37, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletions. —Quasirandom 04:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete or Delete, as utter fictive, and arguably abusive of the Wiki-project. The same comment applies to a number of the following nominations -- Simon Cursitor 13:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. How can this be abusive of the Wikiproject? I can see saying the subject isn't notable by our standards, since this article is lacking secondary sources, but I don't see how you can say having an article about a character that appears in multiple popular novels is so unreasonable that it's abusive. Pinball22 14:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Plus, simply being fictive (utterly or otherwise) is not grounds for deletion. Powers ^T 14:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Prune and Merge. This article is full of non-notable fiction and lack of citations. I don't think there is going to be enough real-world information or references to get beyond a start-class article, so best to prune out the non-encyclopedic content and merge the rest.BreathingMeat 19:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:FICT. Non-notable fictional character. Google did not turn up reliable secondary sources indicating substantial independent coverage. Doctorfluffy 20:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Major character in Forgotten Realms and one of the iconic ones too. --Polaron | Talk 16:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Game-related deletions. --Gavin Collins 23:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
• DeleteThis fictional character from a role playing game does not have reliable secondary sources to demonstrate notability outside the game campaign setting he was designed for[1]. Basically he is the gaming equivalent of cardboard cut-out character: he has no dialog or particular role in the game but was created to pad out a book of gaming instructions. --Gavin Collins 23:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment. If that one link is the only source of information Gavin has used to learn about Wulfgar, that would explain why he seems to know so little about the subject. First of all, Wulfgar was created for a series of novels, in which he appears far more often and notably than he does in any of the RPG materials. And where did you get the information on the reason he was created for ("to pad out a book of gaming instructions"? How do you know this?)? How do you know that he has no dialog? What do you know of his role in the game/novels? Where are *your* reliable sources for these claims, or are you making guesses based on sparse research? I would suggest this editor only make verifiable claims if he wishes to be taken seriously in these deletion efforts. Know thine enemy, after all. BOZ 23:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment at least the source I have cited more specific than the one in the article. If the character first appears in the Forgotten Realms game setting, then this fictional character was derived from a book of game instructions. There are no secondary sources for the game setting or any of the novels, which suggest to me they are not notable either. Padding is a fair comment. --Gavin Collins 00:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Comment That doesn't change the fact that you are making claims you cannot support with evidence, to make your argument seem stronger than it really is. BOZ 04:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
• The link you yourself found specifically says "This brawny barbarian first appeared in The Crystal Shard, the first Forgotten Realms novel written by R.A. Salvatore...." That means we're talking about a character from fiction, not an RPG character. And if you're implying that the Forgotten Realms itself is not notable, you haven't looked very hard. Powers ^T 13:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - As noted by others, this is a notable character from a series of books which has had profound impact on one of the most widely recognized fantasy campaign settings of the last 30 years. Much of the article is in need of help, and I'd love to see the creative energy that people have put into this AfD brought to improving the article. There are hundreds of reviews of the Icewind Dale series and I'm sure many of them discuss this character. Have at it! -Harmil 06:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Commment A mention in a review is just not notable. Compare and contrast with the Wulfgar from the old English poem, for whom there is lots of secondary material[2]. I would say from an article perspective, it would be better to write an article about Wulfgar from the perspective of his role in Beowulf, and then mention the fact that the Forgotten Realms character is derived from him. --Gavin Collins 08:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect. The information seems at least somewhat relevant in some contexts but I do not think it is notable or verifiable enough for its own article. SorryGuy 07:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Severely reduce content (not based on third party sources) and merge to Icewind Dale. This character is not sufficiently notable for its own article. The authors of the article need to read WP:WAF. --SmokeyJoe 08:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.