Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jimmy Carter UFO Incident

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep Notable is defined as "worthy of being noted" or "attracting notice". which this subject clearly does. Whether or it should be merged into any of the suggested articles may be worthy of further exploration. Gnangarra 03:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jimmy Carter UFO Incident

Jimmy Carter UFO Incident (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Each of the referenced sources contains only a single sentence explaining that Jimmy Carter claimed to have seen a UFO. I fail to see how this constitutes a notable incident, should we have an article for every single utterance ever made by a US president? Someguy1221 04:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Delete - As usual, having a passing mention of something in a reference doesn't allow the reference to be usable as a significant source, since there simply isn't enough material to make an article. This is the case with this article. --Philosophus ^T 04:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Note: This page has now been expanded, direct quotes from Carter have been added as well as some other details. perfectblue 10:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Note: the article still contains factual errors and omissions. Bubba73 (talk), 13:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment, As the British would say, "it's time to put your money where your mouth is", please divulge their EXACT nature and your sources, or cease raising the subject. - perfectblue 17:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I put a reference book under "Further Reading" even before the AdD. The correct date is Jan 6, 1969 and the object was identified as Venus. Bubba73 (talk), 18:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not currently have a copy of the book, please quote the section to which you are refering. - perfectblue 18:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It is practically all of chapter two of that book. In fact, all of chapter two is about his investagation of the sighting, except about the last two pages. It is also detailed in his earlier book, The UFO Verdict: Examining the Evidence. It is also in Sky & Telescope Nov 1981. Bubba73 (talk), 19:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment - this is a relatively famous case in UFOlogy. At present, it seems to have only one sentence in Jimmy Carter. At one time there were one or two more sentences in that article, with references. I had a great deal of trouble keeping the references in, and now they are gone. I don't know who removed the references or reduced the coverage to a single line. I have at least four verifiable, reliable sources about the incident. And as far as notability, there are multiple sources for it. Bubba73 (talk), 04:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

additional comment This case was investigated and the UFO was identified. The process of investigation would make interesting reading. Bubba73 (talk), 14:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Weak Keep - With the understanding that the article is currently a stub.Orphic 07:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Redirect (merge what you think is worth) to List of UFO sightings#UFO Sightings. Does not deserve a separate article. Tizio 11:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to UFO sightings in United States. People see UFOs all the time. The fact that a governor and future president saw it doesn't make it any more notable. This from the same man that was also a peanut farmer. --Cyrus Andiron 13:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Merge or Keep - if you wont keep it, just merge it to Jimmy Carter's article, its a short amount of information and I do feel its well worth the addition given who and what the topic is about plus the inclusion of pictures (note i was the one who created this article) (:O) -Nima Baghaei ^{talk · cont · email} 16:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Merge or Keep per Nima. DickClarkMises 16:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
• Neutral. As written, the article is of doubtful notability (hence the tag). I suspect that not much more can be added (and there was something nonsensical about Voyager 2, which I removed). I wouldn't put this into Carter's article, however. List of UFO sightings, maybe. Michaelbusch 17:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a brief mention in a list of UFO sightings (there are two links above in the suggested merges). There is also one sentence in the Jimmy Carter article. There used to be about three sentences there, plus references, but most of it was removed.The story of the investigation and identification of the object is interesting, and could perhaps make it suffieicent for an article. Bubba73 (talk), 17:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep This seems to be mentioned in most books on the subject of UFO sightings. JulesH 22:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Nima. Rhythmnation2004 00:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect as all we have are a sentence of data and there isn't going to be any more, ever. This received jocular press coverage at the time and has persisted, but it was a teeny tiny little thing as far as UFO incidents go.--Dhartung | Talk 08:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, merge, redirect - anything but keep! this is one of the least notable articles I've seen. Adds nothing to knowledge of UFOs or Jimmy Carter. Totnesmartin 17:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment Please check out the citations. Carter was still being asked about this incident 30 years a it happened, and by publications that have nothing to do with the paranormal. This tells us that it has entered popular culture, and thus that it is notable. - perfectblue 17:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and expand: The incident is notable on the grounds of the man who made it, it should be kept and expanded to cover what he said he saw and what authorities did about it. Could easily be presented in case study format. Deleting it serves only to deny that it happened. - perfectblue 20:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment should we therefore include every paranormal anecdote about famous people? Idi Amin's UFO? Abraham Lincoln's seances? the disembodied voice that saved Hitler's life in WWI? They can't be notable on a "they're famous so put it in" basis - it would have to be relevant, I think, rather than incidental. Totnesmartin 20:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

You have to take it on a case by case basis. For example, it would be silly to have a page to George Bush claiming to have seen a flying saucer yesterday unless he had some kind of quantifiable mental episode or something that made him unfit for office etc, as he exists outside of the saucer flap period and isn't associated with saucers in any way, but Carter was president during the cold war and saw his saucer only a couple of years after the famous Boston Traveler story on the Hill abductions when the saucer flap was still happening. - perfectblue 08:08, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and expand - I have faith in perfectblue's ability to bring this article up to standards. She's done amazing work with similar articles and I feel she should be given time to deal with this one in a similar manner. Her strength is in finding numerous citations from notable books and newspapers. Give her time. Also, considering this is a US President acknowledging a UFO encounter, that alone makes it notable. If it must be moved, perhaps it could be moved to a new article about US Presidents opinions on UFOs. Ronald Reagan is pretty famous for stating his belief that aliens or an alien threat could lead to peace on earth or at least a unified response. it's a fascinating subject. So is there enough for an article on that?LiPollis 17:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
• Delete past experience gives me no faith in the paranormal lobby's ability to make this anything other than UFOcruft. Carter thought he saw something, said that he does not believe in aliens, end of story. This article appears to exist solely to inflate the pruported importance of UFO sightings; since Carter explicitly stated that he did not consider this to be any such thing, it has strictly limited relevance. Guy (Help!) 10:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Note Carter stated that "he didn't believe that it was an alien". Aliens are only one possible answer for UFOs, the reason that he stated for not revealing everything when he was president was national security, and we are all away of incidents in which UFOs have turned out to be missile or secret planes such as the stealth. Even when you extract the possibility of aliens, it's still interesting. What exactly did he see? was it an experimental aircraft, a previously unknown weather phenomena. Aliens are only part of Ufology. - perfectblue 14:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment Really Guy, is it necessary to refer to a wikiproject in such a demeaning manner? Do you refer to all Wikiprojects as Lobbies? For those that don't know, WikiProject:Paranormal creates, edits, maintains and watches over a variety of topics that loosely fall under the heading of paranormal. I always thought the Project name should ProjectWeird myself, but our current name represents a consensus. I would ask you to be more respectful other editors during discussions such as this. I am at times embarrassed by the behavior of fellow skeptics on wikipedia. There was simply no need for that statement. The last sentence of your comment would have sufficed and gotten your point acrossbetter had it not been accompanied by the snarky jabs at other editors. No need to invent a conspiracy of paranormalists where none exists. If you wish to expand you comment about its limited releavnce, please do so. If you can refrain from calling people names, I'd be interested to read such a comment. It might even make me change my vote. LiPollis 19:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete does not rise to article status. Paranormal POV-fork of Jimmy Carter. --ScienceApologist 13:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This page tackles the incident from a mainstream perspective, does not state anything controversial or disputed, and does not promote the paranormal (indeed, it specifically states that Carter did not believe that he was witnessing an alien craft). In short, it is all content that could legitimately be added to the Jimmy Carter page but is simply not there becuse editors here believed that it was notable enough to stand alone. POV Forking would only apply if this page promoted the idea that he actually witnessed an alien craft or if it suggested that he believed that he had seen one. Which it does not do. - perfectblue 17:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

There used to be a couple of sentences more about it there, with references, but it kept getting deleted. The last time I checked, it was down to one sentence with no references. Sometimes people would take out the references only, even though they were cited in the text. I got the impression that most editors of that article didn't want but one unsourced sententence about it. For what that is worth. Bubba73 (talk), 18:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Not notable enough as an event to need an article, it could be mentioned in one of the lists of sightings if it isn't already. We need to resist the temptation to create an article about every thing a notable person does or says. --Minderbinder 15:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete From WP:Notability Notable is defined as "worthy of being noted" or "attracting notice"; it is not synonymous with "fame" or "importance". Jimmy Carter is famous and important, but this incident itself is not worthy of being noted, nor does it attract notice, except in the context of Jimmy Carter's fame. Antelan ^talk 18:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The incident is made notable by the fact that a powerful and prominent man whom did not believe in aliens admitted to seeing an object which has never been identified and then pledged to blow the lid off of ufology and the UFO debate by turning around decades of secrecy, but then back peddled on the everything on the grounds of national security. This either verifies that the government was hiding something (aliens, Russian spy planes, secret CIA jets, who knows?) or that it had a vested interest in keeping ufology about paranoia and conspiracies. - perfectblue 19:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Or that anyone can mistake Venus for a UFO. Bubba73 (talk), 19:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Perfectblue, if your comment isn't a perfect example of OR and why we don't allow it, I don't know what is. --Minderbinder 19:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

As you well know, WP:OR does not apply to Afd rationale, it only applies to . I am making a statement of opinion based on observation, which I am perfectly entitled to do here. You will notice that I did NOT write this on the page itself. In return I might venture that raising WP:OR when you know that it doe snot apply is not entirely in line with WP:Afg. - perfectblue 17:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per above reasonsOo7565 19:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Also though poorly written, the article is notable and cited. T_{Talk to me} 23:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, notable. Everyking 08:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, notable. I saw this in a book UFO - consiprancy theories, by Hamlyn Publications of England. Mr Tan 14:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
• keep and expand - I don't believe in UFOs, and I think believing in UFOs is completely beside the case in this AfD. This article seems to be referenced, that should be all that matters: it is reporting that Carter said something, and is providing references as to what he said, and I'm under the impression that is all Wikipedia requires. As for merging into a general "UFO sightings" article, I don't think that's a good idea, as Jimmy Carter's involvement should be sufficient to fork it out into its own article. (As an analogy, shouldn't Ronald Reagan's problem with Alzheimer's deserve its own article, precisely because it's Ronald Reagan? Or, should Clinton's sex scandal be merged into a larger general article on "Presidential Sex Scandals"?) BTW, I also personally think there's too much substance to merge this into a larger article. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad 00:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.