Talk:Apocatastasis
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On December 6, 2003, this article was placed on Votes for deletion as follows (the text was copied from a Google cached copy):
* Apocatastasis - orphaned dictionary definition. Copied to Wiktionary via m:Transwiki. -Smack 21:47, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
o Delete. Onebyone 22:00, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
o Delete. Exists at Wiktionary. Angela. 22:13, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
+ That's because I put it there :) -Smack 00:20, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The article was re-added on December 17, 2003. The Transwiki currently does not contain the opening paragraph. What to do with this article now? I might suggest just using a redirect to Transwiki but what about the opening paragraph which seems it might be worth to keep somehow. RedWolf 08:17, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)
See Wiktionary:Transwiki:Apocatastasis for current Transwiki page. See Wikipedia:Transwiki log for move. RedWolf 08:27, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)
- There is no reason to delete this. It is a perfectly valid theological concept. I'm sure that it will be expanded when we have someone with expertise in early Christian movements. ☮ Eclecticology 09:52, 2004 Feb 29 (UTC)
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- Why someone would want to delete Apocatastasis? I vote to keep it. Optim 10:14, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I don't think the definition is quite correct. Apocatastasis is a Greek term from the pre-Christians era. In Stoic writings, it's a time when all the stars and planets return to their original cosmological position and then the cosmos will be destroyed by fire and reborn to start again. The opposite term is antapocatastasis where the destruction is by flood. The alignment is with Cancer for apocatastasis and with Capricorn with antapocatastasis. In Gnostic writings, apocatastasis is the freeing from earth (matter) and the return of enlightened or chosen souls to God. Earth bound or unenlighted souls (including the Demiurge, aka the Jewish G_d, YHWH) goes elsewhere. Origen, who was Gnostic, took great exception to that :) Not sure if equating YHWH with the Demiurge came after Christianity began when various groups battled for supremacy in orthodoxy. The Gnostics lost - or did they? :) Dan Brown is proof they did not lose completely. Origen had great issue with the idea that some souls with be saved. His apocatastasis involves everyone even if some souls are so terrible they need several life cycles to become perfect. That doctrine was anathemized and it is debatable whether it was only the reincarnation idea or the reincarnation AND universalism idea that was anathemized.
I think the definition should be refined to show it's connection to mythology, philosophy and religion. It's not a scientific term and should not be connected with astronomy, IMHO. I think it should be done quickly as it's now propogated throughout the web as THE definition of apocatastasis. Caroline1008 13:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Was Augustine pronounced Anathema? Incorrect?
From article: Augustine of Hippo was against the doctrine and wrote against it, and was formally pronounced Anathema by the Synod of Constantinople in 543. Was Augustine pronounced Anathema or was Apocatastasis pronounced Anathema?
- In response to that anonymous question, I examined the history of this file to see what was intended. It looks as though a typo was introduced and left uncorrected. Prior to a revision by Geogre at 20:50, 31 March 2005, the passage read thus:
- "It is based on the Biblical passage in 1 Corinthians 15:28, and was extensively preached in the eastern church by St. Gregory of Nyssa in the 4th century. It was formally condemned by the Synod of Constantinople in 543."
- I have added an "it" into the new sentence to restore this meaning:
- "Augustine of Hippo was against the doctrine and wrote against it, and it was formally pronounced Anathema by the Synod of Constantinople in 543."Bob.appleyard 15:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Issues with this article
Though I detect a slight bias in the article it seems to stem from lack of information rather than anything intentional. I would make the changes but being new to wikipedia I would prefer to post something on the discussion page first.
First, there is an implication in the article that Apokatastasis was predominately an eastern theology, but though it could be said to have originated in the School of Alexandria such western fathers as Ambrose of Milan also supported the doctrine, and Jerome supported it at first but later changed his posistion. Basil the Great, who opposed the doctrine, also wrote that the great majority of Christians supported the doctrine during his time. It should also be noted that Gregory the Theologan (Gregory of Nazianzus) is also regarded as a supporter of the doctrine.
Secondly, while Constantinople 543 condemned Apokatastasis it should be noted than though these Anathemas were submitted to the Fifth Oecumenical Synod (Constantinople II, 553) and the Anathema specifically against Apokastasis (or more specifically, against the belief that hell is not eternal) was not ratified, even though it was firmly supported by the Emperor, and is absent from the Anathemas against Origen in Constantinople II.
Thirdly, the origin of Apokatastasis should probably be noted, like much of Alexandrian theology it is a tenant of neo-Platonism and can be found as a central theme in Plotinus' Enneads.
Finally, it should be noted that there is modern support for the doctrine even within more traditional expressions of Christianity. For example the monastic Silouan the Athonite (a highly regarded modern (d. 1938) saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church) supported the doctrine of universal salvation.
What I have written here is somewhat biased in favour of the doctrine I will admit, but it's in the discussion page. Changes should probably be made to the main Article that reflect the heavily disputed nature of this issue during the first eight centuries of Christianity.
- A pronunciation guide (I don't know thepreferred conventions), at least to emphasis on the antepenultimate syllable, ApocaTASTasis, would aid the reader. --Wetman 05:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Yikes, just put up a whole bunch of stuff and totally forgot about the above. Hopefully, someone will do it as I'm off to bed. Stuff full of typos and misspellings but it's late! Caroline1008 06:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, anonymous, I've put what you wrote above in the article. Now you have to provide the references. Thanx! Caroline1008 12:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Universal reconciliation? Merge?
I was wondering if this section, or at least the majority of it that concerns Christianity should be merged with the section on Universal reconciliation (not Unitarian Universalism) since they both seem to be very similar. If not, perhaps some clarification should be added to discern the difference between Apocatastasis and Universal reconciliation (right now, the only thing addressing this is the sentence, "A related belief is Universalism, which is the doctrine that all human beings will be saved from eternal damnation or annihilation in hell.") Thank you in advance for considering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.231.46.253 (talk) 14:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
- You bring up a good point. The difference between Apocatastasis and Universal Reconciliation, is Apocatastasis is the restoration of all things (Mankind, Earth, Satan, Angels, etc.); while Universal Reconciliation is the restoration of relationship between man and God. Apocatastasis is broad in it's scope, Universal Reconciliation is specific in it's scope. Apocatastasis is not nessarily a Christian specific doctrine, while Universal Reconciliation is specifically a Christian doctrine.
- I am looking at reworking the Universal Reconciliation section to keep it's content and have some of the content from the Christian section of Apocatastasis fit in with Universal Reconciliation section. StudentoftheWord 15:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
