Talk:Anointing of the Sick

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I've received it several times when my health problems got to the point where I thought it would be good to have it done. It did have a comforting effect as I was going through my illness to have this given to me by my parish priest. I think it did help me to get better.

JesseG 03:45, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Probably due to the Placebo effect. --NoPetrol 22:22, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Or faith depending on your POV. :) --Sketchee 08:47, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Nuns 2 Holy Viaticum 3 POV? 4 A couple of things... 5 Biblical Reference 6 External links 7 "minority of Anglicans" 8 No "luck" involved 9 Name of article

[edit] Nuns

Can't nun administer this sacrement (& Apolistic Pardon) in an emergency? (Alphaboi867 20:10, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC))

There is no such thing in the Roman Catholic church as an extraordinary minister for Anointing of the Sick. Only a priest or a bishop may administer the sacrament. 68.81.94.170 19:36, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Apostolic pardon and annointing are two things that are different. The first, while it can be given during the Annointing of the Sick, is reserved to those near death and is an indulgence for purgatory. Annointing of the Sick, the Sacrament, is only given by a priest as it involves the care of souls (stict sense) and remits sin. Both actions are reserved to clergy, the second being reserved to priests. Therefore, a nun cannot validly administer the sacament under any circumstances.Davescj 21:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Holy Viaticum

Reuters reports "Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said the 84-year-old Pope had been given the "Holy Viaticum" -- communion reserved for those close to death -- and had decided himself not to go to hospital for treatment.". Can someone explain the Holy Viaticum? Thanks. 63.202.80.51 06:07, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's a Holy communion given to those in danger of death, most often along with the anointing of the sick. --Sketchee 08:50, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

"Holy Viaticum" = the Eucharist given to the dying. "Viaticum" = traveling money in Latin, from "via" to go + "cum" with. Viaticum in The Catholic Encyclopedia - Nunh-huh 08:55, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Holy Viaticum: perhaps we need an article on that, or at least explanation of it in this one as the phrase currently redirects here. On another matter, I'm a little concerned about this paragraph:

While changes were proposed to this sacrament in the wake of the Second Vatican Council, there are actually hundreds of Catholic priests around the world who still offer the traditional form, matter, and intent of the sacrament of Extreme Unction. For a look at what the sacrament is like in its centuries-old form, watch the movie Brideshead Revisited adapted from the novel by Evelyn Waugh.

We need more discussion of how the form these priests offer differs from the new form. The last sentence needs replacing with a description of the centuries-old form. It's no good directing the reader to go and watch a movie to find out what it's like. If anyone knows about all this it would be good if they could add it in. — Trilobite (Talk) 10:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I added a link to an article Google turned up on Holy Viaticum. I was curious about the phrase as it was used in an AP article. I'll add a sentence or two to the main article. Brendano 16:50, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Davescj

[edit] POV?

It gives spiritual aid and comfort and perfect spiritual health, including the forgiveness of sins to Christians who are seriously ill.

While it certainly would give spiritual aid and comfort, I'm not sure that all Christians (especially Protestants) would agree that the ceremony confers "perfect spiritual health" or the forgiveness of sins, especially to an unrepentant recipient. Brendano 16:59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No I think it is fine as is. Basically, that is the Catholic understanding of the sacrament's purpose.~

I'm not sure that sola scriptura-abiding Protestants would even have a problem with this - the forgiveness of sins is explicitly stated in a cannonical book of scripture... they might not call this a sacrament, but that is outside the scope of your argument. I think the only people who would dispute the effects of the anointing are non-Christians. Perhaps a better way to phrase this would be: "The intended ends of the Anointing of the Sick are the giving of spiritual aid...". --Mm35173 17:06, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A couple of things...

First, this incorporates text copied verbatim from the Catholic Encyclopedia. If you do that, you have to put the {{catholic}} tag in the article. See: Wikipedia:Using Catholic Encyclopedia material.

Second, some of the information presented there on Greek terms is not entirely correct. You have to distinguish between actual Greek ecclesiastical usage and Greek-derived Latinate vocabulary, in which there are often expansions and contractions of meaning. I did a Google search in Greek, and it came up with some Greek documents that use chrisma to refer to chrismation, not the anointing of the sick. I took some of the terms out until I can consult some of my Greek Orthodox literature and be sure they are warranted for inclusion in this article. --Jpbrenna 05:56, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical Reference

The source of the biblical translation needs to be cited. The translation of πρεσβυτέρους to "elders" does not coincide with the tradition of the Church surrounding the minister of the sacrament. Not that the translation of πρεσβυτέρους as elders isn't a valid POV; it just needs to be addressed. Perhaps the Greek text should be included here with a public domain translation (Douay-Rheims, etc.). Latter-day translations could possibly be quoted under fair use. --Mm35173 16:58, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Were you just wanting to mention that the word "presbyters" is understood to mean "priests" in Roman Catholic and Orthodox type churches? Wesley 04:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

Could someone please help out with proper descriptions for the external links, per WP:EL and WP:SPAM. Thanks. - Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] AfD? 20:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

If they are correct or complete or what? Dominick ^(TALK) 20:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed the following:

• LDS religious practices, including blessing of the sick
• Holy Viaticum "Food for the Journey"

as not being supporting info for the article per WP:EL; one of the other two needed a minor tweak - Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] AfD? 23:50, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "minority of Anglicans"

I'd challenge the assertion that a minority of Anglicans regard anointing of the sick as sacramental, while admitting that it's fairly difficult these days to determine what constitutes either a majority or a minority of Anglicans.

Furthermore, Article XXV in the Thirty Nine Articles of Religion of 1562 (one of the first and basic faith statements of Anglicanism) explicitly states that Extreme Unction is considered a sacrament. Jason M. Smith 06:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No "luck" involved

I removed the following sentence: "The 2004 dictionary of the Greek language by George D. Babiniotis ( Γεώργιος Δ. Μπαμπινιώτης) states that the sacrament 'is customary in cases of sickness or when someone thinks he is having ill luck.'" With all due respect to Mr. Babinotis, the Orthodox Church does not teach that there is such a thing as "luck". Certainly superstitions abound in Greece, as in many other ancient cultures, but reference to heretical ideas should not be invoked in defining a Sacrament of the Church. MishaPan 22:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name of article

I have felt obliged to undo Sesmith's change of the title, which would give a wrong impression of the contents. The article is about the rite known as Anointing of the Sick, not about just any anointing of the sick carried out perhaps for medicinal purposes. In other words, not every "anointing of the sick" is "the ritual anointing, practised in many Christian Churches, of a sick person." Lima 12:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to suggest changing the name of this article to "Unction" since in a number of churches, particularly Eastern churches, the sacrament is not reserved only for those who are physically ill. Since the scope of the article covers both the ministration to the sick as well as those not physically ill, it would seem that "Unction" would be more appropriate. Any input? MishaPan 19:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with such a move for the reason you provide. -SESmith 23:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

"Unction" or is not specific enough. Even "Unction (religious rite)" would not be specific enough. Chrismation is also a religious anointing or unction. Unction with oil is part of several other distinct religious rites that this article is not about. Even in the Roman rite of the blessing of a church there is anointing. The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church certainly do not call the rite merely "Unction". I wonder how many, if any, minor groups do. If this rite has nothing to do with the sick, how justify quoting James 5:14-15, Matthew 10:8, Luke 10:8-9 and Mark 6:13 in its regard? The Latin Church restricts the sacrament to those who are seriously ill, and in the past it restricted it to those who were not just seriously ill but in actual danger of death. (Did MishaPan perhaps mean to write "seriously ill", not "physically ill"?) Other Churches do not restrict use of the rite to serious illness, but that does not mean that they suppose the rite has nothing to do with illness of any kind, since they too quote James 5:14-15 in its regard. Lima 04:50, 4 May 2007 (UTC)