Talk:Alexandria, Virginia

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"Alexandria and Alexandria County would provide two new pro-slavery representatives."--this really needs a source. I personally had long been under the impression that parts of now Northern Virginia remained separate from the Confederacy, much like the counties which now make up West Virginia did. This claim and its wording imply that Alexandria and Arlington wanted out of DC because (and only because) they wanted to swing the vote in Richmond to keep slavery around. This would then contradict information found here: http://www.virginiaplaces.org/vacities/26capitals.html. In addition, I think the information about Restored Government of Virginia should be added as well.

This article needs some serious correction. There is no "Alexandria County" in Virginia; what had been Alexandria County was renamed Arlington County in the 1920s. As whoever entered it in said, the article came from an old encyclopedia and shows its age. I don't want merely to replace "Alexandria County" by "Arlington County" where it occurs, because I think there is a lot more that is outdated hereand because I would not say that Alexandria is in any way, shape, or form, part of Arlington County.

Everything from the geography and below is up to date as of the year 2000. Everything above it is questionable. -- Ram-Man

-- Beyond all of the criticisms above, a separate article on the "Beltway Bandits" would seem useful to me; It's a term everybody hears, but never gets defined. -- Penta 20:00, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Baltimore-Washington 2 Alexandria and Arlington 3 IDA and CNA 4 Why I removed the external links from within the copy 5 An unanswered question about the history of the area 6 Revolution 7 Addition of Historic Maps 8 Any concerns over the Johnny Bull Political Cartoon? 9 other Alexandria neighborhoods 10 Scotland vs UK 11 Recreation and sites of interest 12 Population

[edit] Baltimore-Washington

I moved down the Census designation as part of the Washington-Baltimore whateveritis, because that isn't used by any real human beings. - DavidWBrooks 18:32, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's not even part of the Washington-Baltimore DC-MD-VA-WV CMSA anymore, as that no longer exists. The OMB now uses the Washington-Arlington-Alexandria DC-MD-VA-WV MSA. john k 21:27, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alexandria and Arlington

Part of the current City of Alexandria and all of Arlington County is in the area Virginia gave to the federal government when DC was created and was ceded back to Virginia around 1848. Is that helpful? Vaoverland 21:11, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

It is, if you also clarify that "Alexandria County" existed briefly following the retrocession and included the prior city of Alexandria (minus the West End/Landmark areas which were not then part of it) and what is now Arlington County i.e. the Virginia side of the "diamond". Before cession to the district, Alexandria was Alexandria and modern-day Arlington County was (I am fairly sure) part of Fairfax County. After retrocession both became "Alexandria County", until Arlington County was later separated from Alexandria.

Also, the suburban areas south of the Beltway and west of I-395 (except for a couple of neighborhoods) are not now and never were part of either Arlington or Alexandria. They are merely addressed that way by the US Postal Service. Stacy McMahon 16:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IDA and CNA

If two of the largest employers are worth mentioning in the article, they are worth giving the official links to. Considering that the wrong spellings have been sitting in the article for nearly two years, that alone is grounds for "necessary" linking.

By the way, I have no idea of what you mean by "unnecessary" here. Do the links provide something above and beyond the article content, to interested readers? Yes. Is it our job to predict who will or will not be interested? No.--192.35.35.36 13:53, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why I removed the external links from within the copy

"Unnecessary" was a poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean that more information isn't needed on this topic, but that external links within text is not the way to do it. If information about these two companies is important - and it certainly is - then the way to do it is within wikipedia. Turn the words into wiki links, then follow the links, thereby creating new articles, and begin writing!

Once those links are available, fine. Until then, external links will suffice. There is nothing wrong with them, and removing them on the grounds that the perfect article doesn't yet exist is simply ridiculous.

As it is, I expect there to be no point on wikifying IDA and CNA, since there is little information available. Their websites are less than revealing, for obvious reasons.

With rare exceptions, putting external links within articles is frowned on, because the whole idea of wikipedia is to create an inter-linked sea of information that everybody can edit. If we send people outside the sea, then some of this information can't be edited, and people can't link from there to new wikipedia information (which is one of the key strengths of this encyclopedia). - DavidWBrooks 14:52, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And part of WP is to document as much as possible. In this case, the external links. You're being absolutely ridiculous.--192.35.35.36 16:16, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK, I turned them into internal links - which shows that there already is a wiki page for CNA! You are welcome to create the other one. - DavidWBrooks 16:38, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, well done. A happy ending.--192.35.35.36 21:18, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] An unanswered question about the history of the area

Having read (or at least skimmed) the articles on Alexandria, Arlington, and D.C., I'm still slighly unclear on one point, which I was hoping this article might answer...

Alexandria City is part inside the diamond, part outside. Does this mean that when Virginia ceded the land south west of the Potomac to create D.C., Alexandria became a split city, part in VA and part in D.C.? Or is the portion of Alexandria outside of the diamond a later addition, that dates to a time after Alexandria County was returned to VA?

Apologies if this is already covered and I missed it Roy Badami 21:00, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The West End / Landmark section certainly wasn't part of the city at that time. The original western boundary of Alexandria was Royal Street, and the city website timeline [1] only mentions two other instances of annexation: one in 1930, when Alexandria incorporated Potomac (Del Ray); and one in 1952, when the city incorporated the "land west of Quaker Lane from Fairfax County." Although I am now staring at a 1798 map of "The Plan of the Town of Alexandria in the District of Columbia," [2] and it quite clearly depicts several city blocks extending south of the District line.

Hm.

I'm going to put forth the most obvious conclusion: Alexandria wasn't chartered as a city until 1852, so any non-DC "Alexandria" residents probably just carried on, business as usual, as residents of the "Alexandria" part of Fairfax County. Which sounds strange until you remember that all of Richmond Highway calls itself "Alexandria" ... --Browncat 04:21, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Revolution

The heading Revolution is inappropriate: there is no info on Alexandria in the Revolution.

Does anyone have any information on the rabbit as Alexandria's unofficial mascot that could be included?

[edit] Addition of Historic Maps

I've added historic, public domain maps from 1878, 1894 and 1945, and I've rearranged the images in chronological order. I would have included the 1945 USGS map before the 1949 stamp, but, at present, the history section is not long enough to neatly incorporate all these thumbnail images.--Robapalooza 22:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Any concerns over the Johnny Bull Political Cartoon?

As a resident, I'm not particularly fond of the political cartoon, "Johnny Bull and the Alexandrians (1814), but I'm open to other opinions on the subject.--Robapalooza 22:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it shows the prominence of Alexandria at the time. Cartoons didn't make fun of insignificant towns. - DavidWBrooks 22:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] other Alexandria neighborhoods

Should Parkfairfax be added to this list (and the surrounding communities in northern Alexandria)?

It was home to Richard Nixon and other prominent politicians early on in their career and the area was originally created for military families during WWII to make a commute to the Pentagon much easier/quicker. Currently several thousand people live there and the market value is through the roof.

[edit] Scotland vs UK

Wikipedia:Flags#Use_of_flags_for_non-sovereign_states_and_nations. ccwaters (talk) 12:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Quite so. That much is a definite issue. The dispute (insofar as there is one, to me it seems apparent that it is just blatant POV-pushing) somehow implies that I should provide a citation for Scotland being in the United Kingdom lest it be considered original research... Madness. I will revert again, and encourage the person who is repeatedly altering the page to enter into negotiation here. If that fails, a Request for Comment will be in order.--Breadandcheese (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment I've protected this page for three days so this conflict can temporarily [at least] be confined to talk and so that no-one gets themselves in trouble with a block-happy admin. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 14:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

So... discussion. What's needing discussed? --Breadandcheese (talk) 16:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Since "sister city" designations are pointless gimmicky (nobody in either city knows or cares about them except chamber-of-commerce PR types) just kill the whole section from this stuffed-to-the-gills article, leaving more readability for real information - and also sidestepping a silly back-and-forth about whether Dundee is in Scotland or the UK. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It's a novel argument, certainly. I actually have some degree of sympathy with it - however there are countless other articles with this information included, it would perhaps seem inconsistent to remove it simply over a dispute. --Breadandcheese (talk) 12:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Every innovation begins with a single, shining example! Let us not fall prey to that hobgoblin of little minds! - DavidWBrooks (talk) 15:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a note that New York City (and Manchester) tackles the "listy" tendancy for twin/sister cities in a table format which allows for several flags and crests, not just one. Might be a suitable way forwards? --Jza84 |  Talk  23:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

--Sorry, NYC once did; the table has been altered. Manchester remains as an example however. --Jza84 |  Talk  23:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:FLAGS specifically allows the use of recognisable sub-national flags, especially those of the UK: "many editors, however, feel that the UK's subnations in particular are an exception". In the case of Dundee, I would be strongly in favor of keeping the flag of Scotland. The whole sister cities/town twinning thing is specifically meant to increase cultural ties between cities, and Dundee, culturally, is very distinctly Scottish, and marketed as such, not as part of some homogenised UK culture. --Schcambo (talk) 11:55, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:Flags notes that subnational flags should not be used except where there is specific relevance. What 'many editors... feel' does not particular matter in this context, the guideline gives no credibility to this viewpoint, it merely notes that it may lead to disputes. As for Dundee, it is no more distinctly Scottish than anywhere else. Its city chambers fly the Union Jack in superior position and the city uses the Union Jack in displayed relating to twin city flags. What more do you need? Incidentally, there is no such thing as 'homogenised UK culture' - the UK is very comfortably multicultural and always has been.

Guidelines are in favour of the present situation, as is usage by the city itself, concerns of consistency fall obviously on this side. Again, what more do you need? --Breadandcheese (talk) 16:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The page title of the Dundee city council is "Dundee City Council, Scotland". Searching the website for the word "Scotland" produces 21,800 results, while searching for "United Kingdom" produces just 381 results. A similar search of Dundee's tourism website produces 740 results for "Scotland", and excluding the domain ".co.uk", no results for "United Kingdom". Finally, Alexandria's own city website describes Dundee as being in Scotland.

I mean, if the place is so clearly and distinctly Scottish, marking it as simply being in the UK is unjustifiable. --Schcambo (talk) 17:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

'Simply'? So you're not against both being used, and the Union Flag? As for the website, by its very ending it is .gov.uk; however as local government is a devolved matter then Scottish political issues are obviously going to feature extremely highly on the website of a local authority in Scotland. Incidentally, I don't necessary hold that referring to something a lot necessarily deepens an association: if that were so, Northern Ireland would be deemed the most British place on Earth. Perish the though. --Breadandcheese (talk) 23:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's an accurate reflection on the constitutional situation here. However, I would note that twinning can be within the UK, e.g. Paisley and Stockport. I'm not comfortable with the outright airbrushing of the "UK" out of the encyclopedia, but I think that the use of the Home nation flags might be suitable more so in this "inter-UK" capacity, rather than finding how "distinctly Scottish" a place is. --Jza84 |  Talk  23:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that practice takes place in other countries too. If it's on a UK town's page, with another town in the UK, then by all means omit UK and even use of a subnational flag may then be appropriate, but internationally I can't see the justification. --Breadandcheese (talk) 23:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I still advocate a table format that allows subnational flags/crests for all the places, as well as sovereign icons. Having re-read Schcambo's comments again, I'd have to make the point that Burnley is distinctly Lancastrian, but that does not make it any less English or British. I'd include both flags per WP:V. --Jza84 |  Talk  00:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh for crying out loud, then kill all the stupid flags. This is a huge waste of a lot of intelligent editors! - DavidWBrooks (talk) 00:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't consider my efforts (or other's) for a way forwards here to be a "huge waste". Discussion about content is a fundamental part of how Wikipedia functions. The issue is clearly dear to many editors. --Jza84 |  Talk  00:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's hard to read a phrase like "advocate a table format that allows subnational flags/crests for all the places, as well as sovereign icons" in regards to redundant icons alongside the least significant portion of the article, and not have the phrase "poor use of time" leap to mind. .... But having gotten off my high horse, you're quite correct: If it's of interest to people and being handled with calm discussion rather than the edit wars that usually occur, when so much the better. My apologies. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 01:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

So... table format? I suppose it may well solve this problem rather more permanently. --Breadandcheese (talk) 00:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recreation and sites of interest

Please add the following to the Recreation and sites of interest section:

In 1830, John Hollensbury's home in [[Alexandria, Virginia]] was one of two homes directly boarding an [[alleyway]] that received an annoying amount of [[Horse-drawn vehicle|horse-drawn wagon]] traffic and loiterers.<ref name="beloved">Bailey, Steve. (February 29, 2008) [[The New York Times]] ''[http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/travel/escapes/29away.html A Tiny, Beloved Home That Was Built for Spite.]'' Section: F; Page F6. Location: 523 Queen St, Alexandria, VA 22314.</ref> To prevent people from using the alleyway, Hollensbury constructed a 7 feet wide, 25 feet deep, 325 square foot, two story home using the existing brick walls of the adjacent homes for the sides of the new home.<ref name="beloved"/> The brick walls of the [[spite house|Hollensbury Spite House]] living room have gouges from wagon-wheel hubs and the house still is standing and occupied.<ref name="beloved"/>

GregManninLB (talk) 17:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Done. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Population

Not a major issue but the opening paragraph gives the population as 128,284, according to the 2000 census. The infobox and demographics section gives it as 128,283. Checking the Census Bureau website makes clear that the 128,283 figure is correct and that the opening paragraph therefore needs changing. -- Lincolnite (talk) 17:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• Done. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:34, 22 March 2008 (UTC)