Talk:Ainu people
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[edit] Corrected last paragraph of History
Original:Today, many Ainu dislike the term Ainu because of a common derogatory pronunciation of the word in Japanese (A! Inu!, which means "Ah! A dog!" in Japanese) and prefer to identify themselves as Utari (comrade in the Ainu language). In official documents both names are used. After edit:Today, many Ainu dislike the term Ainu because once it had been used with derogatory nuance and prefer to identify themselves as Utari (comrade in the Ainu language). In official documents both names are used.
"A! Inu!" and "Ainu" sound very different in Japanese. There is no Japanese resource mentionig association between "A! Inu" and "Ainu".Seekerx (talk) 10:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Removed Caucasoid References
The portion that said Ainus resemble Caucasoids is quite ridiculous. The skin tone and body type do not resemble Caucasoids. And from wikipedia's own Ainu pictures, their facial features look vastly different from that of Caucasoids. Considering the fact that they resemble the proto-Australoids of South East Asia and Australia, and that their language is similar to Austronesian languages of Taiwan, I'm removing references between the Ainu and Caucasoids. Intranetusa (talk) 04:14, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mapping Human History citation, not clear
Upon searching for 'Mapping Human History' by Steve Olson it appears there is more than one book with this title and different sub-titles by this author. It is not clear in the article which one is being referred to. Would be good to include the full title. Alex53 (talk) 09:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] VFD July 2005
Ainu people was once nominated for deletion. The VFD page contained considerable discussion about the article, and has been moved to the article's namespace fore reference. Talk:Ainu people/VFD nomination on July 16 2005 -Casito⇝Talk 04:04, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Customs and art
Are any of these customs still practiced today? --rmhermen
Do they have any tribal art? —This unsigned comment was added by Dreamyshade (talk • contribs) .
- Try this page, Dreamyshade:
[edit] Similarities with other groups
Recent genetic and morphological studies claim similiarities exist between the Ainu and American aborigines and between the Ainu and "Japanese" samurai.
What does the bit about similarities between the Ainu and "Japanese" samurai mean exactly? -- Daniel Thomas —This unsigned comment was added by 139.134.58.153 (talk • contribs) .
- I don't think it means anything, and I'll remove it in a few days if nobody objects - stewacide 04:44 Dec 26, 2002 (UTC)
[edit] Nonsense at beginning of article
What is all that nonsense at the beginning of the article? It apparently is (1) trying to explain (poorly) what is a Mongoloid and (2) to suggest that somehow Japanese and Ainus are more Mongoloid than Han Chinese or Koreans. I think it should be completely removed since it vaguely has anything to do with Ainus specifically.
- Sour pickle 6 July 2005 23:14 (UTC)
- The argicle doesn't seem to make any mention that the Ainu have mixed austrailoid/mongoloid origin. It seems to take the Japanese government's view that they are pure mongoloid. --Pinkboi 15:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Poor Quality: prospective Japanese Contributors will be turned off on Wikipedia
Ladies and Gentlemen, this article, its tone set by work nearly 100 years old, is so far below the standard Wikipedia article I was startled. The pre-genetic-era racial classifications alone are extraordinary.
I fear that Japanese contributors turning here will be shocked, and will distrust Wikipedia afterward. Imagine a Westerner picking up a Japanese encyclopedia, deciding to check it by looking up "African Americans," say, and finding entries written in 1911, reflecting racial understanding then!
I hope scholars in Japan will completely rework this. I'll try to interest my department's Japanese scholars in revamping this. I certainly don't know enough. This advanced topic needs someone who knows not only ethnic cultures of Japan and Japanese politics, but also the latest genetic findings. Best wishes.
[edit] Article needs updating after 90 years
Much of the material in this article comes from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica with the present tense intact. If anyone has any knowledge of changes in culture during the past nine decades, it would be most helpful if you updated this article, particularly the Culture section, at least changing to past tense customs that are no longer observed. Fg2 12:40, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
- The estimations given for Ainu population and especially for the number of Ainu speakers are apparently out of date. Ainu is NOT spoken any more. I have myself talked to a linguist who worked on Ainu grammar in the 1990ies. His only informant was an old woman in her eighties, bound to bed in a hospital with a dozen of linguists and anthropologists swarming around her. And her command of the language was actually somewhat limited. Ethnologue.com states 15 active speakers at 1996. —This unsigned comment was added by Dmitry Gerasimov (talk • contribs) .
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- Almost ten months after my inquiry about whether the cultural practices are current, I haven't gotten any reply, so I changed them to past tense. If the Ainu people presently follow these cultural traditions, please change the relevant passages to the present tense. Fg2 July 7, 2005 04:28 (UTC)
[edit] Beards? just the men?
Not _quite_ that long ago, when I was a kid, I recall reading that Ainu woman had beards. Any truth to that? (I've known some American woman with beards, FWIW) ;Bear 00:15, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)
- No, not exactly; I think you are referencing the traditional practice of tatooing a 'mustache' on an Ainu woman's upper lip.--Pharos 19:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I don't know if the women wore beards, but the Ainu have long held the record as the ethnic group with the greatest amount of body hair overall. Agateller 17:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
- Not really, their 'hairyness' is often exxagerated to contrast them with other Japanese / North East Asians.
- No, really, the Ainu are the most hirsute ethnic group in the world. The Japanese are very hairy, too, compared to most other ethnic groups. I think you don't know Japanese people (especially men) well enough. Koreans and other (continental) East Asians, however, are extremely smooth-skinned. Ebizur 17:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Very true. Many East Asians are hairy or at least relatively so. Many white people like to make these fake divisions whenever their preconceptions prove false. Le Anh-Huy 03:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
- Not really, their 'hairyness' is often exxagerated to contrast them with other Japanese / North East Asians.
- I don't know if the women wore beards, but the Ainu have long held the record as the ethnic group with the greatest amount of body hair overall. Agateller 17:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Ainu women do not grow beards (!) (Kunchan 23:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC))
- You are all thinking of the tattoos around the mouth that used to be common. Here is [1]one photo, and here is [2]another, clearer one. Heian-794 (talk) 10:33, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Pronunciation
Is it really necessary to say that the name is pronounced "eye-noo"? I mean, if the person reading can understand any phonetics, this would be a piece of cake to pronounce. Besides, there are no such pronunciation tools anywhere else on this site. Kakashi-sensei 18:52, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- In my opinion, "eye-noo" conveys the pronunciation better than "Ainu" (many people would rhyme "ain" with "pain") or tools such as IPA, which only a fraction of English speakers understand. Fg2 01:49, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
- I understand that it may be easier for people, but I see no such pronunciation guides anywhere else on Wiki. Anyway, it's not that big of a deal; I just thought it was odd :p Kakashi-sensei 14:22, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
- I've IPA-ified the pronunciation and included a link to International Phonetic Alphabet for anyone who needs help with the symbols. The IPA is actually very easy to learn; there's no reason to avoid it on the grounds of unfamiliarity. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 28 June 2005 06:16 (UTC)
I'm not sure what section this would go in, but a Japanese friend and I were discussing the etymology of the word "Ainu". She states that most native Japanese believe the term to be related to the Japanese "ainu", meaning "unfortunate". I'm not certain if its even relevant to this article, but it is another point-of-view. 黒雲 19:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Archeology?
I thought I read somewhere that the Ainu perplex archeologists because, although they are native to Japan, they appear to be Caucasian in origin. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there should be some mention of that mystery in this article. Kakashi-sensei 18:56, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Modern genetics has proven that Ainu are definitely Asians.
Ah, thanks for that update. Kakashi-sensei 12:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- In 1865, an English naturalist and his staff stole Ainu people's bones at 13 graveyards in Otoshibe, Hokkaido for his anthropological study. The bones went back home two years later. However, this is a rare case; many Japanese and Westerners, most notably KODAMA Sakuzaemon, stole buried bones and items later. This is why many Ainu don't believe archaeologists. - TAKASUGI Shinji 09:30, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)
Ainu may be proto-mongloid, while Japanese "Yamato" are mongoloid pushing north and coming from Korea, part of that long journey from austral Africa.
Takima 01:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Why can't you people get over this stupid habit of classifying every ethnic group as either "Caucasoid," "Mongoloid," "Negroid," or whatever? It's really ridiculous, especially when considering an ethnic group that, like the Ainu, has an extremely long history of isolated evolution. The Ainu are a Paleolithic branch (i.e., they branched off from some mainland Eurasian population prior to the Neolithic revolution and the coalescence of modern "racial" groups) off of a (probably) Central Asian population related to many of the ancestors of modern Tajiks, Tibetans, and Turkic peoples. If you look at any photograph of a group of Tajiks, Tibetans, or Karachay Turks, for instance, you can see a strong resemblance with the modern Ainu people; genetic studies also suggest that the morphological similarity between the Ainu and these (generally southerly) Central Asian peoples is more than just a coincidence.
- As for the Japanese proper, they clearly have a multi-layered ancestry, with the oldest major genetic contribution being provided by the Ainu or people very closely related to (most of) the ancestors of the Ainu. However, the Japanese also possess many ancestors who were closely related to the (probably) Paleolithic populations of the Korean Peninsula, as reflected in the presence of Haplogroup O2b Y-chromosomes among the modern Japanese population. Smaller genetic influences from other various Eurasian groups are also apparent: the modern Japanese display a significant frequency of Haplogroup O3 Y-chromosomes, which are typical of Southern Tungusic, Sino-Tibetan, and Miao-Yao peoples, as well as being found throughout Central Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, and Austronesian regions of Oceania. Haplogroup O3 is generally believed to be the best genetic correlate of Neolithic influence in Eastern Eurasia. Haplogroup N, which is typical of Uralic peoples and the Sakha, is also found at a low frequency in Japan. Other Y-chromosome haplogroups, such as the typically Native American Haplogroup Q, Western European Haplogroup R1b, and Northern European Haplogroup I are also found sporadically among modern Japanese, but these probably represent recent foreign admixture. In any case, the Japanese appear to be about 50% "Ainu," 30% (Paleolithic?) "Korean," and 20% "Other," which consists mainly of generalized East Asian or perhaps proto-Chinese. Ebizur 17:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Religion
The portion of this article that provides a summary of the form of animism believed by native Ainu is a wretched mess combining animism, Western European polytheistic beliefs, and Christianity. The reference to 'hell' I have removed, it being the most obvious error. The 'Religion' portion still needs a lot of revision, though. 12.June.2005 —This unsigned comment was added by 69.218.210.231 (talk • contribs) .
- The religion section is quite sparse. If I have the time over the next few days, I'll see if I can't add some useful information.RebelAt 17:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Speedy tag removal
This article is clearly does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion. If you want it deleted, wait for it to get voted on at VFD. -Casito⇝Talk 19:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] VfD tag
Please leave the VfD tag (but not the other spammage) in future versions of this article until an administrator closes the VfD. Musachachado followed the nomination process correctly and the tag should remain. Fortunately, administrators can end nonsense VfD nominations early so it should be gone soon regardless. - Thatdog 19:30, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Copyright Violation
Sorry all to the VfD fiasco. This article is blatantly a copyright violation, and I think this needs to be addressed. Plus, it is an article from 1911 and thus misleading and dated.Musachachado 20:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that the part that is derived from the 1911 EB is hardly au currant, and that part should (and has already to some extent) be updated. However, there clearly is no copyright violation as the 1911 EB is no longer copyrighted. The EB company knows well and does not dispute this fact, and does not at all object to the dozens of copies of 1911 EB content all over the internet.--Pharos 21:13, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
- I agree entirely that ideas about ethnic groups in 1911 are certainly not consistant with modern ideas. However, the correct thing to do in that case is to discuss the errors on the talk page (per Fg2) or edit the article to fix the errors yourself. The solution is not to crusade against the other wikipedians and call them names. Nor is it worthwhile to add a frivolous entry to the already back-logged Wikipedia:Copyright problems.
- I am not an expert in U.S. or Florida copyright law (I have a distaste common law in general), so I can't say whether or not your living documents arguement has any merit. What I can say is that there are hundreds of articles in Wikipedia incorporating text from the 1911EB, and most rank-and-file editors believe that the 1911EB is PD. If you are the expert you claim to be, and Wikipedia is violating U.S. or Florida copyright law, it is a serious issue that should definitly be addressed at a higher level than simple Copyvio claims. That system is mostly for blatent plagiarism that dosn't require a law degree to identify. Wikipedia has several people dedicated to legal affairs, whom I suggest you contact If you have serious concerns that Wikipedia is systematically infringing on copyrights. I know that Danny is involved with this, and he would probably be a good person to talk to. I suggest you be polite and rational. -Casito⇝Talk 21:27, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
- Usage of EB 1911 is established Wikipedia policy and is not copyright violation. Review of your past contributions shows nothing but blatant vandalism and disruption, and I will assume this issue is a tongue-in-cheek attempt at the same. - Thatdog 22:12, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if you would not impugn my fledgling contributions to your wikipedian society. I am a new user, granted, but some of my contributions have substantially improved/expanded the articles to which they were made (see Homestead, Florida or Tupac Amaru II, for instance. Any "vandalism," I assure you, was simply done in testing various edits in this new system -- "getting my feet wet," as it were. I am sure that the administrators of this site would not appreciate you "biting the newcomers" such as you just did, and I believe you owe me an apology, sir!Musachachado 02:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
- It's become quite clear to me that Musachachado (obviously the same as CelineDionFan82) is not a clueless newbie, but a troll and a vandal.--Pharos 05:46, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Uh...Musachachado? What, exactly, are you referring to as your productive edits at Túpac Amaru II and Homestead, Florida? I'm not seeing anything at either place that bears your name (see Musachachado (talk • contribs))... Are you the same person as Muchosucko (talk • contribs) and/or the following anons?
- Tomer TALK 09:49, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
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- Yes, that was me on the Tupac Amaru II page who started the debate over whether make mention that Tupac Shakur's name was in honor of Amaru. You might have though that was 'trolling' at first glance, but in effect, my contributions DID lead to a productive expansion of the article, and now not only Tupac Shakur is mentioned, but Amaru's inspiration of many leftist/indigineous causes is included in the article, and rightfully so. Just because you might not agree with someone does not make him a "vandal." This article in question is almost 100 years old and a lazy, uninspired word-for-word copy nonetheless. We need to fix it. You don't want some middle school kid to come to Wikipedia to look up "Ainu" and come away with a slanted, dated, Edwardian racist view of the topic I take it? This is a place of debate, not an antiquarian society. Thank you. Musachachado 15:52, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, your nominating Túpac Amaru II for deletion after your (poorly written) additions about Tupac were rejected was what made me regard your actions as trollish. It now appears possible that you're simply unfamiliar with the criteria which make articles valid candidates for WP:VFD. These are clarified at WP:GVFD. With this new assumption, I will reëvaluate my attitude toward you and strike my judgment from my VfD vote for this article. That said, I do agree with you, that the article as it presently stands, is atrocious. Please help the community by fixing it—even one sentence at a time is helpful. Tomer TALK 17:56, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, that was me on the Tupac Amaru II page who started the debate over whether make mention that Tupac Shakur's name was in honor of Amaru. You might have though that was 'trolling' at first glance, but in effect, my contributions DID lead to a productive expansion of the article, and now not only Tupac Shakur is mentioned, but Amaru's inspiration of many leftist/indigineous causes is included in the article, and rightfully so. Just because you might not agree with someone does not make him a "vandal." This article in question is almost 100 years old and a lazy, uninspired word-for-word copy nonetheless. We need to fix it. You don't want some middle school kid to come to Wikipedia to look up "Ainu" and come away with a slanted, dated, Edwardian racist view of the topic I take it? This is a place of debate, not an antiquarian society. Thank you. Musachachado 15:52, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Dude! What are you talking about "poorly written"? Why you always tryin' to keep a brotha down? But thanks for understanding, my man... I mean, there's no need to have a century-old article cut and pasted here and passing for current scholarship with no attribution. And yeah, its me, Musachachado. I had to use this account for my other one seems to be blocked right now for whatever reason.Rainbowwarrior1977 03:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Tomer, I was previously of the opinion that Musachachado was just a clueless newbie, but I have become quite convinced of the opposite. Compare the contributions of Musachachado (talk • contribs) and CelineDionFan82 (talk • contribs). They both edit the same relatively obscure articles. The CelineDionFan82 account recently added stuff to this article about the "inherently superior culture" of ethnic Japanese compared to Ainu; is this not the exact opposite of Musachachado's supposed stance?--Pharos 20:52, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "Mongoloid, not Caucasian"
This whole section is of dubious accuracy, making sweeping statements about concepts that were debunked after, well, 1911.
Anyone want to rewrite it? —This unsigned comment was added by Nandesuka (talk • contribs) .
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- I agree. This is exactly what we're talking about. We need to rewrite this article totally. The best way to do it is delete it and start over, if you people won't snap to it.Musachachado 15:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
- The Ainu people are neither Mongoloid nor Caucasoid: they comprise their own morphological and genetical group, which is often eponymously titled "Ainoid." The Ainu genepool has been mostly isolated from other human populations since the Paleolithic era; thus, they have not had the chance to be the source or recipient of significant gene flow since a time prior to the formation of the macro-populations partially inbred according to geographical proximity (i.e., "races") that are generally recognized in the world today, i.e. Negroid (better called "Africoid," because it originally formed due to inbreeding within the African landmass), Caucasoid (better called "Western Eurasoid"), Australoid (better called "Paleolithic Oceanoid," which is an ancient branch off of proto-Eurasoid-Americanoid-Australoid), Mongoloid ("Eastern Eurasoid," a branch off of proto-Eurasoid, probably with some admixture with older branches from the proto-Eurasoid-Americanoid stem, such as the Ainu), and Americanoid (a distinctive branch off of proto-Eurasoid-Americanoid). The Ainoid race is just as distinctive as any of these other "races," although it displays certain affinities (mostly cranial) to the Caucasoid race and other affinities (mostly post-cranial) to the Americanoid and Mongoloid races. To put it in laymen's terms, the Ainu are simply "the Ainu" and they don't belong to any other people's "racial group," but their heads and faces tend to be relatively similar to the Caucasoids (Western Eurasians) and their body shapes tend to be relatively similar to the Americanoids (Native Americans) and Mongoloids (Eastern Eurasians). They appear to descend mostly from a very ancient Paleolithic branch of proto-Eurasoid-Americanoid peoples. The only ethnic groups with which the Ainu share any significant amount of recent ancestry are the Japanese (including the Ryūkyūans) and the Nivkhs. As an aside, it can be noted that the inhabitants of the Japanese Archipelago, including the Ainu, Japanese, and Ryūkyūans, display certain odd genetic archaicisms that appear to descend directly from Paleolithic African "proto-humans." Thus, for example, the Japanese display some proteins and other genetic, immunological, and morphological characteristics that are absent from all extra-African populations except the populations of the Japanese Archipelago. They are definitely not just another version of East Asian Mongoloids, although the Japanese and the Ryukyuans, at least, do appear to share some recent ancestry with certain East Asian ethnic groups. Ebizur 19:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The Ainu are Australoid, and in no way resemble Caucasoids. Their skin tone is NOT the tone of Caucasians, their body type does NOT resemble Caucasoids, and judging from wikipedia's own pictures on the Ainu, their facial features are very different from that of Caucasoids. Intranetusa (talk) 04:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The Ainus are definitely not Caucasoid. The Ainu adult male has a full head of hair, whereas Caucasoid males tend to lose significant amount of hair past the age of 25, and many are bald by the age of 50. 81.157.99.169 (talk) 14:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] "Sport" section
65.54.97.196, please provide sources for your claim about Ainu athletism, e.g., here, so that it could be verified. Otherwise I am afraid your addition will be deleted, unfortunately. Apologies, mikka (t) 01:58, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
I left the sources posted on Nightowlneils talk page.65.54.97.196 02:13, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
- I recently added a section on the "Ainu People" article re: their participation in sports. You deleted it with no explanation. The section I added can be substantiated in Kayano Shigeru, et al., "The Ainu: A Story of Japan's Original People." (2004), p. 31 and William Fitzhugh (ed.), "Ainu: Spirit of a Northern People" (2001 reprint ed.), pp. 364-366. Besides that, I lived in Japan for many years with the U.S. Navy and know this information to be personally true. So please do not revert my addition without doing some research. Thank you.65.54.97.196 02:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC) Niteowlneils 02:22, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Had to remove untrue POV about sports; both Japanese and Ainu men, as Northern Mongoloids (including Koreans, Mongolians, Central Asians, Arctic Asians, and some Northern Chinese), have the same physical qualities too often absent among southern Mongoloids. - Le Anh-Huy.
- I re-added this section, and provided a citation to the article in question in-line. If you want to remove it, please supply an authority supporting that position. Thanks. Nandesuka 12:21, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
i looking for a flag of ainu poeple please contact me at : crackwindobe@voila.fr —This unsigned comment was added by 83.201.23.101 (talk • contribs) .
[edit] Request for Information
Please provide information on the Ainu myth/story of origin: that there is a specific mountain where the first Ainu set foot on Earth. This request was originally added to the article by User:216.231.48.252.
[edit] Clitoris tattoos?
It looks like the source of this is Node ue on 04:47, 23 May 2004. Vandalism? --Adamrush 16:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
- It's not in the article Ainu in the 1911 Britannica (available e.g. at [3]), from which much of the original text of the article was taken. Fg2 22:03, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
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- That is correct (and the reason why I was suspicious), but, after a closer look at the history, I have found that Node ue added a reference to Japan's Minorities: An Illusion of Homogenity around the time he added "clitorii" (sic) to that list. I'll check up on that book next time I'm at the library--it sounds like an interesting book. --Adamrush 01:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it may sound like vandalism, but traditionally, some Ainu women got clitoral tatoos as a rite of passage IIRC. There're quite a few sources for this. I don't know that you can find pictures of Ainu clitoral tatoos, but you can certainly find photos of facial tatoos on Ainu women -- it looks a lot like a mustache, and you have to read a lot about the Ainu before you get used to it. I'm not sure how many living Ainu women have traditional tatoos _at all_, but I know that somebody of the age of Shigeru Kayano most likely wouldn't have them... I believe they were outlawed at one time or another. They're no longer illegal, I don't believe, but it doesn't seem to me that Ainu women are rushing to get tatoos -- Japanese society has told them that it's ugly, contrary to the more traditional Ainu concept of beauty, and even the most independentist and traditionalist of young Ainu are hugely influenced by mainstream Japanese society and would probably be repulsed by facial or clitoral tatoos, or at least not want to have them on themselves. As a side note, it was traditionally the grandmother who did the tatooing, and it was over a long period of time, bit by bit (not in one sitting!). In Japanese society, clitoral tatoos are already sort of freaky, but if you add the idea of them being done by old ladies (Otakunese: obaasan), people would be absolutely revolted. --Node 08:00, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
- What was your source, though? Google only turns up Wikipedia. --Adamrush 16:14, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
- I'm thinking it was the "japan's minorities" book. If not, it was definitely the "spirit of a northern people" book, as it talks a bit about the tattooing. --Node 01:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC) [4]
- Okay, the book's on order from my university's library. I think that bit of information should have a citation so as to not look so suspect. --Adamrush 19:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
- I'm thinking it was the "japan's minorities" book. If not, it was definitely the "spirit of a northern people" book, as it talks a bit about the tattooing. --Node 01:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC) [4]
[edit] Ainu History
The history section of the Ainu is rather brief and could use some considerable addition. I'm bringing this up, in hope that this will spur others to work on the section. Myself, if time allows, I'll attempt to add at least a fair amount for the Tokugawa period, as much as my personal resource allows.RebelAt 18:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Is that date when Japanese first encountered the Ainu known? It is not mentioned in the article. Not even a century. Ashmoo 06:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- It somewhat depends on your point of view. The Japanese had contact and trade relationships with a people known as the Emishi, the forefathers of the Ainu, as early as 300 AD. However, they weren't viewed precisely as an entirely different race, but as a more barbaric Japanese group. It was in the Heian period (794 - 1185) that a particular Emishi group was identified, the Watarishima Emishi, which had what later on was described as typical Ainu cultural features. At the end of the 12th century, the Japanese had eliminated or pushed back all the Emishi groups into the north of Honshu and to Hokkaido. At this time, the Japanese began calling the remaining Emishi, Ezo. This name was also a shortened use of a word (Ezogashima)to describe "barbarian lands" in the north, such as Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the Kurils. By the 15th century, the people known as the Ainu today, claimed most of this territory as their homeland and bloodily repulsed initial Japanese attempts to control southern Hokkaido. Perhaps I'll attempt to add some to the article in a bit later. RebelAt 16:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I can write a section on the history of Ainu and also Assimilation policies of the japanese gaovernment in regard to the Ainu - I have undertaken postgraduate research and writings in this field at the University of Essex. Might take me a few weeks to start - but I will add it little by little and cite all academic references (Kunchan 23:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC))
[edit] Tie to Native Americans?
Are there any archaeological evidence tying the Ainu to native americans? I heard from various reports that some native groups journeyed from Japan across the Bering Strait and settled in the Americas.--141.213.196.250 01:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Looking at old photographs of Ainus, they look a lot more similar to depigmented Australian aborigines and Papuan than any other people. Ainu today may be a genetic mix of the first Ainus and mongoloid Japanese (heavily in favour of the Mongoloid) but the first Ainus were Australoids rather than Caucasoids or Mongoloids.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.60.106.5 (talk • contribs) .
- I believe this is a reference to supposed links to certain older fossils such as [Kennewick Man]. Morphological evidence suggests a link. Many really old skeletons suggest that the first people in the Americas were Australoid. --Pinkboi 15:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Some Ainu bones have future similar to Neanderthal. Here are some references to genetics papers, but do you know any Ainu exact references?
For example, almost 9 out of 10 Ainu trace their paternal lineage to an ancestor who has also fathered approximately 9 out of 10 Moroccans and South African Bantu. That man, who first carried the YAP mutation, lived either in Asia or Africa, and yet his descendants belong to three of the major human races.
Similarly, 9 out of 10 Basques are descended from a man who has also fathered 9 out of 10 Kets from Siberia and 9 out of 10 Maya Indians from America. That man, founder of haplogroup P thus has descendants who belong to two of the major human races (or three, if Amerindians are considered as separate from Asian Mongoloids from
6: Kondo Osamu Function: Graduate School of Science,Faculty of Science Department of Biological Science Division of Anthropology Job Title: Lecturer Theme: Growth of Neanderthals Palaeolithic fossil hominids in Lerant Paleoanthropology in Japan Keyword: Neanderthal Jomon Ainu Growth Paleounthropology Near East(West Asia) Last Update: 2000-11-30 from
Both modern whites and NE Asians share some Neanderthal traits, but these are different traits. Due to the efforts of the Ainu (and their colonizers), Huns, Mongols and Russians, we remain rather similar, but Caucasians and N.E. Asians each possess skeletal traits unique to themselves that are at least Neanderthal in origin. [5]
American Neanderthal? ABC News ^ | 02-18-2000 Loring Brace, a specialist in bone measurements at the University of Michigan, says he has a simple explanation for this — both Kennewick Man and the Ainu, along with the people of Europe, descended from Neanderthals [6]
and 1427 more related [7] We.eter 07:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
How do you know the above mentioned genetic mutations happened only to one man in human history? 81.155.100.190 21:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Origin?
- "Modern genetics has proven they are East Asians"
Well, they certainly do not look East Asian on this picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AinuGroup.JPG Some of these faces could be seen in any city in Europe. This really imply connection between Ainu and some peoples from the proposed Eurasiatic languages super-family. PANONIAN (talk) 02:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
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- You've never been to Asia I take it? On a side-note, I've traveled throughout the European Continent, from the Southern regions of Greece and Carpathian mountains thru the Ukraine, Russia, Poland Finland all the way thru France, Spain, the British Isles and Scandinavia and I've NEVER seen people who resembled the pic above.
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- If anything, the Ainu in this pic closely resemble the peoples found in the former Burma and East India.--208.54.15.161 19:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I can tell they are east asian in that pic; perhaps you expect asians to always have over-exaggerated asian features? i've met some ainu people, and they look no diff. from japanese or siberian people to me. Le Anh-Huy 21:34, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] music
Mention of instrument Tonkori & contemporay artist OKI?
[edit] Tenses in Culture section
The culture section of the article is a constant back-and-forth of present and past tenses. Not knowing enough about the Ainu to know how many of these cultural aspects are still practiced or observed, I thought I'd leave a note rather than trying to edit it myself. The way it reads now is slightly awkward; unless it truly represents the current state of things, it could benefit from a bit of consistency. Thanks, romarin [talk ] 19:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
--- "Han expansion"? That's pretty dumb. "Han" is a cultural label, it's not some kind of racial designation.
[edit] Ainu= 'Dwarf barbarians' in Chinese?
I've read before that Chinese used to call the inhabitants of Japan 'dwarf barbarians', barbarian being the usual translation for the word they used for foreigners.
Now, in Mandarin, that sounds like 'ai nu', 'ai' being short, 'nu' being dwarf/slave.
Is this just a coincidence? I do not think the chinese spoken centuries ago would sound much like mandarin. and I do not know if the pronounciation for 'short dwarf' is similiar to 'ainu'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.126.164.65 (talk) 07:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC).
- I think that is mere coincidence. Mandarin Chinese is a tonal language which has a number of homonyms (probably more than any other language group) - 'ai' also means 'Love' in both Mandarin and Japanese, though in Mandarin it has a downward tone, which was lost in its importation to Japanese, which is not a tonal language. 'Ainu' most definitely does not mean 'love slave' or 'love dwarf' :-)
Mandrian Chinese is a fairly recent Beijing region based language. Ancient Chinese would've been quite different and distinct from Mandrian. So it is merely conincidence. Intranetusa (talk) 04:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sport
A section was just added regarding the Ainu's ethnic superiority at sports, due to their build, etc. Though cited (and quite possibly true to some extent), isn't this just as POV and biased as writing that black people are better at basketball and American football? LordAmeth 14:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This is pure POV, and unless substantiated needs to be removed. As both Ainu scholar and resdient of Hokkaido, I have never heard of such a thing. It is true that the Ainu have different build structures to the Wajin (or majority Japanense) but there is no substaniated excellence at sports. Indeed one could ask, which sports? Moreover, there are very few pure Ainu left in Japan due to Japaense assimilation policies - intermarriage with the Wajin population being quite common. (Kunchan 23:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC))
[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:18, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Jomon Stuff
Why is there a section about a connection between the Jomon and the Americas in an Ainu article and not in the Jomon article? And the paragraph before there seems irrelevant.--Dougweller (talk) 13:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, no one has explained why a connection to the Americas by the Jomon is in an article about the Ainu, I'm deleting it. Doug Weller (talk) 06:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Unnecessary racist language
This article is peppered with racist phraseology. I have already removed references to "pure" and "pure-blooded", but there are more that need to go. Reading some of the other posts I can well believe this article has been derived from the Encyclopaedia Britannica of 1911! Don't forget race is just a myth from a scientific point of view! You can talk about cultural homogenicity and genetic homogenicity, but the idea of talking about human races as if they were different species is both old fashioned and incorrect.--Hontogaichiban (talk) 09:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Hairy Ainu
Shouldn't there be a reference in the article somewhere to the Ainu being known as "the Hairy Ainu" as a proper name in Western anthropological textbooks etc? I'm not sure if the phrase is now frowned on on this PC world, but certainly they were called that in the middle of last century and before (and possibly later - I only have textbooks dating from this period), and it shouldn't be excised through cultural revisionism. 86.148.49.46 (talk) 11:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Please remove the stupid President Jackson joke.
I can't figure out what this guy did. Not an expert. Please remove, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.228.190 (talk) 04:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
![[1]](http://www.sciencebuff.org/images/dynamic/other/women.jpg){kind=link}
![[2]](http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t223/ifiwasagecko/the%20blond%20years/ainu_tattooed_moustache.jpg){kind=link}
