Talk:African traditional religion
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[edit] Article Length
For a search phrase with so many Google hits this article should be much longer. As Mbiti pointed out, there is no plurality of "gods", lesser or otherwise. One of the primary purposes of this book was to show that the Western practice of putting African religions at the bottom of the religious evolutionary pyramid was primarily an attempt to suggest that their religions were inferior and unevolved; perhaps this article shouldn't be repeating these myths? Also, all this talk about "worship" needs to go (perhaps "consultation", or even "veneration"?). Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 10:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- I certainly don't know enough about traditional African beliefs to comment on whether or not the belief in a plurality of gods is true, but I do know a lot about Hinduism and Buddhism. Hinduism acknowledges a plurality of gods (well, in essence they're just different manifestations of brahman) and Buddhism denies the existence of a god. I don't think either are considered "unevolved" religions since they are the oldest, and second oldest recorded faiths on earth. Anyways, my point is that saying Africans believe in a plurality of gods isn't necessarily deragatory. It's just un-Christian, and there's nothing wrong with that. It might just be a misunderstanding. Out of interest, is the belief in one over-arching god a result of missionaries? Or has that always been the complement to the many nature spirits and ancestors? Joziboy 20:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
No, the sangoma link was a bad idea. Sangomas are healers and diviners, not priests. Actually, religious ceremonies are usually carried out under the guidance of the malume and nkali (malome and rakgadi in Sesotho, malume and makhadzi in Tshivenda, etc). Eg at my father's funeral last year there was no ngaka (although one of my relatives is one she was not overseeing any ceremonies), but an older female relative (rakgadi) who, among other things, wanted me to shave my dreads! Naturally I declined (and, as you should know by now, I don't do traditions, African or Western). Monotheism in Africa is not actually relatively young. As Mbiti pointed out ATR is about the family and spiritual power. The (half-)dead are still part of the family since their shadows (isithunzi as opposed to umthunzi, serithi/morithi etc) still exist (Ubuntu just means that your shadow only exists as long as there are people around to experience it, even after you become a spiritual being). continuing...
Now, simply saying that ATR is polytheist animism is simple and plain wrong. God exists, but is not given much attention since it's a very old, very remote being (no one knows its shadow), however, it's used to explain great events or events in very remote time (such as the creation of people). Note that most ATR societies have no beginning or end of time myths - there's simply no reason to believe that the infinite cycle of time has not always been that way and will not always be that way. This is what I meant about it being intuitive. It's a religion as well as a folk philosophy, with lots of varied rites and mythologies added for good measure. It's the base philosophy (shadows, infinite cycles, 2D time, etc) that is shared by a surprising number of separate societies. But this is what the article currently looks like... Btw I don't appreciate people claiming to use Mbiti as a source, then asserting the exact same lies he set out to disprove. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 23:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Wow this is all fascinating. I love religious studies (did it in first year, but sadly they don't know much about African religions in Scotland!). So is this Mbiti the book to read? Joziboy 09:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Yep, get your grimy paws on it TODAY, as a start. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 10:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Traditional or Ingenious
Often and mistakenly so the terms traditional, indigenous and classical are merged into one understanding as it relates to African culture and history. It is a fundamental mistake as it warps and limits a true understanding of Africa and its many complex international relationships thus restricting and confining African history and culture. Traditional As these words relate to the religion, Islam becomes a traditional African religion, which exists in classical and contemporary Africa. It is often said by scholars and historians that Islam has been in Africa longer than it has been in any other part of the Middle East (bar Mecca in Saudi Arabia). True also, Judaism and Ethiopian Christianity have also been in Africa for such a long period that in certain places (and this is key) there are traditional African religions. This does not mean that all forms of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are classical or traditional. And hence terms like traditional African Islam are fundamental in defining the African reality in classical African and contemporary history: Just as Christianity traditional to Rome is starkly distinctive from Christianity local to Ethiopia. Fundamental ingredients embody the essences of these religions in Africa, which makes them traditional, and this must be recognised in any constructive appreciation of African culture and history. Indigenous Indigenous is a word that can only be used to relate to something fostered by that community which claims it. Because something is indigenous to Africa does not make it traditional or for that matter classical. Indigenous thus does not by default speak to a people’s legacy only to the fostering of that item.--Halaqah 14:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Vain attempt
I tried to make the article a tad more relevant by removing or rephrasing certain language and culture-specific parts.
Currently this article is a collection of irrelevant peculiarities. It would be nice if it actually said something usable and provided more info and a discussion of the topic.
There is an entire continent of Africans out there, and this article is embarrassing. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I have made a number of additions. These have been noted in individual edit summaries. They include adding two titles to the bibliography. Comments added within the article come largely from Mbiti and from Wole Soyinka's Myth, Literature and the African World (this last one of those two titles).Gallador 13:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
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- We have added some minor information to offer more clarity to some of the points made in the article. Namely removing the term pagan, and commenting on the use of the term animism, both of which we find out-dated and pejorative. We have also removed Ifa from the line of intercessionary lessor deities. Ifa is not a deity, but rather is considered a highly developed system of divination employed by the Orisha (Yoruba) and Vodou traditionalists in West Africa and in the Diaspora. Also, the use of the anthropological characterization of lessor deities is a bit awkard as well. In African Traditional Religions a "lessor deity" would be considered on the same par (or higher) as a Christian Angel. In African Traditional Religions it would be considered offensive and even dangerous to employ the term when praying to a specific deity for intercession. They are usually referred to by their cultural names i.e, Ogun, Da, Mami Wata,etc.,. This subject is very broad and attempting to cover the expanse of the African continent with so much religious diversity is quite a challenge. It would be the same as attempting to summarize all the indigenous religions of India. However, it is a start, and I hope others will assist in this effort. Apokassii 05:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Your edits are great -- thanks a lot!
I thought that Goddess was a bit redundant, since in ATR God rarely has a specific sex (often it's arbitrarily invented when outsiders specifically ask for it) but then of course, the English use of "God" is almost always male so it doesn't hurt to say that this is not generally the case in ATR.
It takes great care and hard work to prevent articles on African topics becoming the ubiquitous "primitive societies do all these things, without exception" I see so often in old sources and many new sources which cite from the old ones, perhaps changing "do" to "used to do" (as is often the case with Wikipedia).
Keep up the great work -- Wikipedia desperately needs more editors like this. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 08:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback. there is so many articles of this nature that needs more editors. It is almost overwhelming. I am personally working on anther project now. If and when I get more time, I will try and assist with this one as well. Apokassii 15:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
P.S. We have removed the anthropological term cult in one of your sub-headings,and replaced it with (in this case) liturgy. Cult as it is understood in the West, carries a loaded bag of negative connotations, and has never fit or adequately described what are actually African congregational religious/spiritual clan systems. We have also added a photo if this is okay with you. The term Diaspora is used, because the priestess in the middle (white top) is an African-American priestess.Apokassii~17:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Absolute lack of details on Ancestral Spirits
One of the defining characteristics of African indigenous religions is that most veneration is directed at ancestor spirits. There is absolutely nothing detailing this in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hiranbalasuriya (talk • contribs) 16:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Animism and derogation
I find it hard to believe that the term "animist" is derogatory. It refers to a specific form of belief that natural phenomena and objects also have spirits - anima. That's all. Now, calling something a superstition might be considered derogatory, if this is presented as an objective statement. But calling a belief system that is animist, well, animist ... that's not really derogatory, is it now?
Antro etc 13:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
That's like saying: "well, if they are evil terrorists then it's not insulting to call them evil terrorists, right?" Most ATR does not fall under the definition of animism (believing that every natural thing has a spirit) and therefore they are not animism. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 14:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] WANTED: WIKI-USERS WHO ARE ACTUALLY FROM THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA!
WHERE ARE THE REAL AFRICAN WIKI-USERS?
Alright, people, the African traditional religions article has been hijacked by Afro-centrists. The message in many paragraphs seems to be this: African traditional religions are just as ancient and good as European traditional religions and have suffered from terrible racism from western academia. Well, DUH!! We don't need you to tell us that in every sentence! Whoever this has an inferior complex, BIGTIME! Why not educate public by actually giving more information about the religions themselves [mythology, practices, that sort of thing!!] Also, can you believe the religions they are listing as African? Yes, religions like Santeria and candomble religion do have strong roots that go back to Africa, particular West and central Africa. However, Santeria is a cuban religion, not an african one. Candomble is a Brazilian religion. Black is not always synonymous with African and African is not always synonymous with Black! I mean this for the other African articles too! No, I am not from Africa Myself, but I would really real information on the continent, not the crap Afro-centrists and Eurocentrists give me!! >:(
- The problem is that there's not a great deal of Internet access in many African traditional areas. maybe One Laptop Per Child will change that, but only time will tell. — Rickyrab | Talk 02:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- we cannot use contributions based on hearsay anyway. This topic like any other is subject to the WP:V and WP:RS policies. --dab (𒁳) 17:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Restoring to Previous Version
Hi, I'm busy now, so I haven't read in detail the changes made that I reverted. However, I noted that the changer deleted a lot of text, including the bibliography. If you have substantive additions with which to enhance this page, go ahead and enhance it correctly. Kindly do not deprive the page of so much of its value in the process of contributing to it. Gallador (talk) 13:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
