Talk:Spirit of St. Louis

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I'm interested to know why the cowl of the plane is gold in color. When did that happen and why? The plane had a silver cowl (brushed bare aluminum) for transatlantic flight and AFAIK, replicas have stuck with that too.

The cowling became golden when the Smithsonian applied a "protective" substance to the metal. They were concerned about oxidization/protecting it. The substance unfortunately turned the silver colored aluminum golden. Rather than fix the error, they decided (perhaps after trying to correct it?) that it was best to leave it as it was. The last time I visited the museum, there was no explanation about why or how this historic error occurred. It should probably be addressed in Wiki since I too wondered about it for many years. This info was told to me by a museum director some years ago Virtualn 15:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)virtualn

I've removed the following from the article because it doesn't fit at present, although it may at a future date as the article grows:

...such as ones at the Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport and Lambert-Saint Louis International Airport. The airport also had Lindbergh's original Curtiss JN-4D "Jenny", which miraculously survived a fire in a downtown Minneapolis high-rise in 1982. It's now at the Cradle of Aviation Museum on Long Island in New York.

Willy Logan 05:02, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

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I added material -- much of it from Lindbergh's 1953 memoir "The Spirit of St. Louis" -- to explain some of the unique characteristics of the aircraft. I also corrected its fuel load: designed capacity of 425 gallons, actual takeoff capacity 450 gallons. - Vince Crawley, August 7, 2006

Thanks for that, it looks good. In particular its good to mention that the plane had no windshield - I hadn't noticed that. -- Solipsist 08:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Aircraft Name 2 Cross- section 3 Spirit of St. louis,the Book. Written by Charles lindberg. 4 The Orteig Prize 5 Swastika 6 Focus 7 Gallery 8 Usage of "Airplane" vs "Aircraft" 9 Intro

[edit] Aircraft Name

Should this aircraft not be known as the "Ryan NYP" first, and "Spirit of St.Louis" second? --67.191.10.242 01:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

No, according to WP:NAME:

Convention: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. --Wafulz 01:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cross- section

I know I've seen a cross section of this aircraft somewhere, and I think it would be a great addition to this article. I cannot remember where I saw it, but I know it exists (if anyone feels like looking for it)RSido 02:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Added the Technical Preparations for the Spirit of St. Louis by Donald Hall in 1927 for the NCAA (currently available from the NASA website). It should help people that want to know the exact details of the airplane. -N.H.

[edit] Spirit of St. louis,the Book. Written by Charles lindberg.

Charles's book

Recently, while browsing through a local used-book store, I stumbled upon a copy of Charles Lindberg's original book of his flight to Paris. In it, it had a trove of specifications and such. The information was as precise as possible, which is understandible, since the author is the original pilot. Over the next few days, I plan to update the page as much as possible to keep this page maintained. Wish me luck! --Loseratlove 03:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Orteig Prize

The Orteig Prize was offered to the first aviator to fly non-stop from New York City to Paris,however, the Atlantic had been crossed in non-stop flights previously. Although Lindbergh was the first to fly solo from New York to Paris non-stop, he was not the first aviator to complete a transatlantic heavier-than-air aircraft flight. That had been done first in stages by the crew of the NC-4, in May 1919, although their flying boat broke down and had to be repaired before continuing. The NC-4 flights took 19 days to cross the Atlantic Ocean.

The first truly non-stop transatlantic flight was achieved nearly eight years before by two British flyers, John Alcock and Arthur Whitten Brown in a modified Vickers Vimy IV bomber on 14 June-15 June 1919, departing Lester's Field near St. Johns, Newfoundland, and arriving at Clifden, Ireland, (a shorter route than Lindbergh's). A total of 81 people had flown across the Atlantic prior to Lindbergh (questionable). However, his was the first solo, non-stop transatlantic flight.

The fact that the Spirit of St. Louis was used in a solo flight is what makes it unique. Others have the claim of being the first across the Atlantic in a non-stop flight. FWIW Bzuk 02:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC).

Just noticed that the Legacy paragraph has the statement (and coincidentally completing the first aerial mainland-to-mainland crossing) which is clearly wrong as Bzuk has stated. For example the LZ-126 crossed from Germany to New Jersey non-stop. Not sure why we have an emphasis on mainland-to-mainland, Lindberg is always been recognised as the first transatlantic solo-flight, does this not belittle the efforts of other fliers because they left from Ireland or England. And is not Long Island an island not the mainland! MilborneOne 20:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

MilborneOne- I agree, I was just trying to mollify another editor's constant reversions with a so-so statement but I have now removed the claim entirely as it really was not germane to the main contention that the Spirit completed the NY-Paris flight as a solo non-stop crossing. Thanks for the update. Bzuk 20:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC).

I agree that the statement about islands is not the best way to make the point I'm trying to make, and was sloppy. It seems that along with the solo aspect, Lindbergh should be credited with demonstrating the ability to fly non-stop from a major population center to a major population center, rather than from more obscure locations. It seems that this more than prevous attempts demostrated commercial viability of non-stop flights across the Atlantic. But it's not worth the animosity than the attempt is generating here. --Kevin Murray 22:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Lots of these flights did not go from the mainland of North America to the mainland of Europe. Newfoundland, Ireland, and Great Britain are not part of the mainland. Long Island is close enough to the rest of New York State to be part of the continental mainland, for all practical purposes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.249.92.64 (talk • contribs) 23 MAY 2008 18:22

Long Island is close enough to the mainland of New York and Connecticut to be part of the continental mainland for all practical purposes, and especially for aviation purposes. Long Island is close enough to Manhattan that they both connect to New York and New Jersey via highway and railroad bridges and tunnels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.249.92.64 (talk • contribs) 23 MAY 2008 18:22

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[edit] Swastika

 : A later paragraph begins "A swastika was painted on the inside of the nosecone of the Spirit of St. Louis...” Reading this gave me a misleading impression of the extent of Lindbergh’s anti-Semitism and support of the nascient 3rd Reich at the time of his Atlantic flight. A photo of the nosecone’s inside (at the bottom of the page) shows it was a backward-swastika, with the hooks pointing to the left. Lindberg's complicated and ugly set of beliefs didn't bloom publicly until perhaps ten years later.

If others agree, would someone consider changing it to say "A backward swastika (left handed swastika) was painted on the inside of the nosecone of the Spirit of St. Louis..." (I'm not a User so it isn't appropriate for me to.) 18 December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.26.170 (talk) 03:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if the swastika is drawn in only one direction, I believe that the swastika (from Sanskrit svástika ◊Ë‘◊ˬ€≥ ) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, can be in either right-facing (ô¬) or left-facing (ô¬) forms. The swastika can also be drawn as a traditional swastika, but with a second 90° bend in each arm. It has a wikilink to the appropriate Wikipedia article that explains the history of the swastika. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 03:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC).

I think the article is currently correct. The swastika was placed there as a good luck charm, as evidenced by the orientation in relation to the names. The swastika in that orientation is good luck, it's the swastika on its side that is a symbol of the nazis.--LWF (talk) 03:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

For Pete's sake, the Nazi swastika was always a clockwise one, rather than a counter-clockwise one, and before the Nazi era, it had an entirely-different meaning anyway. I have read that in old Germanic languages, it stood for the letter combination "th". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.249.92.64 (talk • contribs) 23 MAY 2008 18:22

[edit] Focus

Even though the material being introduced on the books and films made about the Spirit of St. Louis are interesting, this is primarily an article about the aircraft and its history. The associated material is best placed in the story of Lindbergh or in the separate articles on the actor, film and books that resulted from the transatlantic flight. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 11:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC).

The two books and the film all directly relate to (and are named for) the aircraft, its history, and especially its very important place in American culture. The limited amount of material I have added to this article could (and probably should) be included in other articles to which it also relates, but I feel strongly that should not come to its exclusion from this SoSL article to which it applies most directly. I can really not think of any other aircraft, ship, train, or other vehicle that is a greater or more universally recognized cultural icon than the Spirit of St. Louis. Even after 81 years, this aircraft is still far more than a "machine" but is instead the living embodiment of a sea change milestone of how aviation as a means of transportation in the United States was viewed and supported. (Centpacrr (talk) 12:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC))

Regardless, the amount of material is far too detailed and is more related to the after-market products that resulted. A mention of the aircraft's iconic status with some examples should suffice. After that, the connection with the two flyers, James Stewart and Charles Lindbergh involved is inconsequential, whether two or a second account was published and received an award, is also peripheral to the story of the Spirit. If you wish to develop the history of the aircraft, then the focus should remain on the aircraft, mention its legacy but devoting too much emphasis brings up: Wp:Weight issues. Please consider a revision to cut down the section and incorporate the valuable information into the related articles that are more appropriate to the actual books and film that accompanied this historic aircraft's threading into the public psyche and mythology. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC).

I can't say that I ever thought of Lindbergh's two namesake books which represent his detailed personal accounts of the history of his airplane and his flight as being "after-market products", "inconsequential", or "peripheral", but be that as it may, as requested I have deleted the section. (Centpacrr (talk) 13:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC))

Please excuse my Baroque allusions, I sometimes speak/write faster than I think. The iconic nature of the Spirit has not escaped me, I dragged my family, kicking and screaming to see a recreation of Lindbergh's cross country air tour, when the EAA replica Spirit stopped in my city. I also made a pilgrimage to the NASM specifically to see the Spirit, which I understand was also at times, visited by Charles Lindbergh himself. One of the tour guides who noticed my reverential gaze, took me aside and explained that he closed the gallery from time to time after hours when CAL visited and let the aviator sit in the cockpit undisturbed. As to the Spirit's legacy, mention has to be made of its status as a piece of Americana with the detail about its connections to popular culture. My sole contention was that the comprehensive nature of the submissions about the books and film that transpired, may be better placed with the specific articles. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC).

As per your suggestion I have restored the section relating it to the "Spirit" as "a piece of Americana with the detail about its connections to popular culture."(Centpacrr (talk) 11:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC))

Some ancillary details revised, see above notes for clarification. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC).

I have to say that Bzuks revision was better and it was probably wrong to remove that text and re-insert another version. The lastest version has again added far more detail about the book and film which should be in the related articles and borders on original research or opinion rather than facts. I would suggest that we revert back to the version as amended by Bzuk and work on improving that. MilborneOne (talk) 11:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Tweaked the text to remove some of the extra text that does not relate to the aircraft. MilborneOne (talk) 12:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

While the two very brief footnotes relating to key similarities between Stewart and Lindbergh (age and background in military aviation) may not be strictly "pertinent" to the "Spirit of St. Louis" as a physical object or machine, they certainly are central to Stweart's casting in the film and how he and his "co-star" -- the Spirit -- interact with each other in the picture. The real life closeness in the ages, experience, and aviation backgrounds of the two aviators had a significant influence in how the "title character" is developed and portrayed in the film as Lindbergh's "partner" (i.e. "We"), and thereby materially affects how the film represents the plane. As this section of the article discusses the Spirit as it is related to and in popular culture, mentioning these two key relationships between Lindbergh and Stewart becomes neither out of place or irrelevant. (Centpacrr (talk) 07:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC))

That's a stretch, put information about the film with the film article. The casting of Stewart had much more to do with his affinity to Lindbergh and not the aircraft with which he was associated. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC).

I have added the information to the article on the film. I still feel strongly, however, that these two facts have significant relevance to the SoSL article as well for the reasons I stated, although as a concession I have moved them from my principal text to the footnotes. To me knowing about these particular similarities in the backgrounds of Lindbergh and Stewart has a material affect on how I view the film and evaluating Stewart's interaction with his "co-star" -- the Spirit. I find puzzling a philosophy that facts which are relevant to subjects referenced in more than one article can only be included in one article and must be arbitrarily excluded of all others to which they would otherwise apply. The two particular similarities between Lindbergh and Stewart that I included are clearly relevant to both articles in my view, and as such I subscribe to a philosophy of including such facts everywhere that they are relevant rather then arbitrarily excluding them simply because they appear someplace else as well. While others may disagree with me as to the extent of their relevance in the popular culture section of the SoSl article, their inclusion certainly does no harm. FWIW (Centpacrr (talk) 13:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC))

No need to make concessions. If there is not consensus, then the information is best presented where it is the most relevant. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC).

[edit] Gallery

There is no need for a gallery of images when the WikiCommmons image gallery is linked. FWiW, the gallery is usually redundant in this case. Bzuk (talk) 02:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC).

[edit] Usage of "Airplane" vs "Aircraft"

Thread moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft(Centpacrr] (talk) 17:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Intro

The introduction has recently been changed by User:Centpacrr from flown by Charles Lindbergh on the first non-stop solo transatlantic flight from New York to Paris to flown solo by Charles Lindbergh on the first New York to Paris non-stop transatlantic flight I reverted but it has now been changed back by User:Centpacrr to the later version. Is not the fame attached to the flight because it was the first solo non-stop transatlantic crossing not because it was the first non-stop flight from New York to Paris. Did not want to revert it again without some other opinions on the matter. Just to quote the Smithsonian Milestone of Flight http://www.nasm.si.edu/exhibitions/GAL100/stlouis.html "Milestone: First Nonstop Solo Transatlantic Flight" which is what the article said before! MilborneOne (talk) 18:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The Orteig Prize was for the first "non-stop flight from New York to Paris" whether or not done solo. Lindbergh was the only one to try it solo, but that was incidental to winning the prize. Alcock and Brown flew nonstop across the Atlantic in June, 1919. (Centpacrr (talk) 19:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC))

Sorry I refer again to the Smithsonian "First Nonstop Solo Transatlantic Flight" as the milestone achieved or is the Smithsonian wrong? MilborneOne (talk) 19:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

He was the first to fly solo, but the Prize was for a non-stop flight from New York to Paris whether or not it was done solo. So it was the first non-stop flight from New York to Paris which also happened to be done solo, i.e., it was TWO firsts. (Centpacrr (talk) 19:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC))

Dont disagree about the prize but his fame (according to Smithsonian) is for the first solo. Perhaps we should change the intro to mention both. MilborneOne (talk) 20:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I have tweaked the intro to add the solo bit after the Orteig Prize. MilborneOne (talk) 20:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)