Talk:Spetsnaz
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[edit] Claims of being best
I googled the supposed Rangers/Spetsnaz competition and every site that lists it references "an article from the ninties" but does not list which periodical or actual time. Mostly, it looks like the story was lifted from a Spetsnaz fan website.
I'd like a link to this competition in Alaska between the American Rangers and Spetsnaz. I doubt it happened. If such a competition were to occur, it would happen at Fort Benning in Georgia,Fort Lewis in Washington or Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Also, there should be a mention of the rumored involvement of Spetsnaz in Vietnam. Victor Suvorov, an ex-Spetsnaz man, mentions in his book how the performance of the American Special Forces in Vietnam was viewed by the Russians and how the US SF's success spurred the further development of the Russian Special Forces.
- We should leave rumors out because they're primary sources and difficult to verify. There are always rumors of different things.Comatose51 06:04, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Especially since Victor Suvorov didn't/couldn't cite his sources and is widely considered to have at least some "innacuracies" (to put it nicely) in the stories he told. Read that as: He may have made the "competition" thing up. We need another/reliable source. -- Sy / (talk) 13:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I have strong reservations about the claims of these units being the best infantry and the story about the Rangers' competition seems hard to verify. The first issue is subjective. I bet an article on the SAS or the US Navy SEALs would claim that they're the best. Thus, I'm incline to remove such statements. The story about the competition rings of urban legend or rumors. Where's the primary source for that? Unless verified, I'm also inclined to remove it. Comatose51 06:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
Regardless of your reservations, you're right that the personalness and opinion should be removed from the article. =) -- Sy / (talk) 19:40, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
I doubt some non-crucial names and facts listed, althogh not ready to edit. For instance, my knowledge is that some Soviet non-SOF units, such as radiocommunication batallion, were called "-OSNAZ". However the general idea of the article is right. But it may need restructuring to avoid term-domination. AlexPU 13:18, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
OSNAZ already exists, which see.--Tomtom 05:56, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
84.66.161.26 20:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I think all claims of being the best have to be treated especially catiously for Spetsnaz. Clearly some units are very, very good, but the combat record of others is extremely poor. Many Spetsnaz are simply light infantry, with all the weaknesses of the rest of the Soviet army. In one bungled operation in Afghanistan an entire brigade was wiped out after it was landed so far off target some elements were actually in Pakistan. The famous attack on the Presidential palace which started the invasion was also hardly of SAS style subtlety - the Spetsnaz drove up to the front gate in a convoy of vehicles and just started shooting. Not only did they kill the man they were trying to 'rescue', but in accounts of the fighting broadcast on TV one of the Spetsnaz decribes how in the heat of the fighting one of his comrades accidently threw a hand grenade the wrong way. Not exactly the actions of one of the world's best. Martin Porter
I think claims of being world's best should not be brought into ANY play. Spetsnaz has different jobs, and different assignments then Delta or KSK or any other special forces. Each of these Special Forces have their own purposes and you cant go and say "oh well SAS is better than Spetsnaz". It doesnt matter, this isnt a boxing match. Different jobs for different countries. You can show fumbles, and large accomplishments from ALL special forces, and it doesnt make any difference. Mistakes happen, situations change. Also, if you're talking about the attack on the Presidential Palace, I never heard of them trying to rescue anyone. I seem to recall they were there to assasinate the President, not rescue him. -anon
84.66.161.26 20:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
It hardly matters what claims they make. It's all POV anyway.
Which spez force unit is the best? The one who is better prepeared. As for the palace assault - their task was realy not to save someone, but to terminate president. And executing this operation was more difficult, because soviets were outnumbered by the palace guard and were not having heavy weapon to fight tanks plus to this palace itself was placed to give great advantage to its defenders, so I don't think, that it is correct to say "was also hardly of SAS style subtlety - the Spetsnaz drove up to the front gate in a convoy of vehicles and just started shooting" There also was task to capture some other governmental buildings and to cut city from the countrys information link - which was done. Are there many others who can do this? --Oleg Str 10:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
There are some rather objective ratings out there actually, though I don't know where to find them. That being said it is obviously subjective to a point, so wouldn't have a place in Wikipedia. For example that was brought up during the last presidential campaign, politicians were arguing about how our special forces aren't the best, even in the top 5 or something like that. What gives us our edge is our technology. Of course it is all still subjective, unless you stuck all the special forces of the world into a cage match and wait to see who comes out on top. That being said, the spetsnaz are supposedly renowned for their pain tolerance! --67.185.245.221 (talk) 06:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Spetsnaz martial training
I have removed the "See also" reference:
- Systema: The Martial Art Used by Spetsnaz
Because Systema is not "the" martial art which they use.
Systema is only known to relatively few units, and even to the few it is not taught in a complete form. Individuals are of course free to persue further training for themselves.
Spetsnaz martial training in general has been a relative unknown, however there are a few people who have mentioned a little of their own martial training. Of course there is Sambo but also mixes of Karate and other arts.
I'd liken Systema to a mix of traditional and obscure Russian martial arts as well as a more recent Spetsnaz influence both by some training programs and some individuals. I think the Spetsnaz link is most prominant because the immediate chain of teachers are Spets.
-- Sy / (talk) 14:25, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I would like to say something about this. I have heard a stand-alone word "Sistema" as a name of a hand-to-hand combat system from the TV program "Военная тайна" (Voennaya tajna, eng. - "War secret"). There it was described as a computer generated system. Where specialy designed software calculated the most effective movements for a big variety of the situations basing on the data about humans body abilities, fights of the hand-to-hand masters and so on that program analyzed. When in russian language you mean some another H2H system you should say "система рукопашного боя" (sistema rukopashnogo boya, eng. - H2H combat system), not just "Sistema". When it is said, that spetsnaz use system - it can mean, that threre is a use of some other H2H combat system, like Kadochnikovs system, military sambo and so on. It is also possible, that "Sistema" is journalists fake - keep it in mind.--Oleg Str 12:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "nazranie"
There are many websites(including the SOC website linked to from the article) which claim that Spetsnaz is an abbreviation of "Spetsialnoe nazranie", although "nazranie" is not even a Russian word. It would be interesting to know the origin of this error. A search for the word "назрание" comes up with a few sites where it is clearly a misspelling of "название", and one Macedonian site which makes the "spetsialnoe nazranie" claim. However, a search for "nazranie"(with Latin letters) turns up non-Russian Spetsnaz-related sites.
[edit] Pronunciation
The article says /ʃpecnaz/. Shoudn't it be /specnaz/? —Michael Z. 2005-09-6 19:57 Z
I think it is better to write spetsnaz because in case of specnaz that "c" can be wrongly readed as K.--Oleg Str 13:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think the first comment above is about the pronunciation ... it is rather out of date anyway as the article now reads /spʲɛʦnaz/ — Stumps 13:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] OSNAZ is the obsolete term
It was used to refer to special forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War and first post-war years. Then it was obsoleted by spetsnaz. It is not (or almost not) used to refer to special forces of Russia presently. Cmapm 01:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Incorrect--Tombombadil 02:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
- Why? Is there a source where this is explained?
[edit] Incorrect Parallel Made
The following quote is incorrect, or at least I think so: "The parallel of U.S. Army Rangers and 1st SFOD-D (aka "Delta Force") is apparent." No, the US Army Rangers aren't even on the same level as the Delta. I'm not talking about their level of quality, they're among the best the US military has to offer, no doubt, but their purpose as a combat unit is totally different than that of Delta's. So, I don't think the comparison between Alfa and the Rangers is correct. In fact, the whole size of the unit isn't even alike, the Rangers can fight in batallion strength, therefor numbering in the thousands, whereas Delta does not and their particular purpose and training does not allow for such a large size. With the description of the Russian Alfa unit being such, I would imagine the same conditions exist for Russian special-op forces. Just an observation. 12.220.83.63 05:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Picture Addition
[1] could someone add http://www5c.biglobe.ne.jp/~recon/SOG-SPETSNAZ-6.jpg as a picture, i dont know how... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GregLoutsenko (talk • contribs) 20:09, 6 June 2005 (UTC)
Please create new sections for new conversation. Also, no.. it's not correct to just take pictures from the net. Also that link is now broken. =) -- Sy / (talk) 13:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Changed Sentence
Changed the sentence: Generally, English-language media refer to them as "Russian special forces" and, in fact, usually [use this term for other countries' special forces]. To: Generally, English-language media refer to them as "Russian special forces."
I did this for two reasons: First, the sentence immediately preceding this one starts with an "in fact," making the paragraph sound repetitive (i.e., In fact...in fact). Second, the last part of the original sentence is superfluous to the topic. This is about Russian Special Forces, not about the Special Forces of the rest of the world. Sorry about not logging in but I'm kinda lazy today. 66.75.242.105 17:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Lucky
[edit] About the Very Term itself
[11.11.2006 14:14] McBak
I'm a Russian myself and was surprised at learnig that Western People use the word Spetsnaz so imprecisely.
First of all, it's pronounced [spets'na:z], with [ts] being a single sound, pronounced the same way as the letter Z in German.
Then, Spetsnaz is not about Special Forces at all; it's a VERY general term used to describe all sorts of military and police units engaged into some special activities, but this is not what we call Special Forces in the Western meaning of that word.
The best, though bitter definition of Spetsnaz would be 'Special groups among regular troops that are used in a queer way or at least not quite the way they are supposed to be used'
For example, extremely heavily armed policemen in Chechenia that are employed to fight insurgency, or to protect civilians, actually being 'police soldiers' rather than policemen, are Spetsnaz. Regular soldiers trained as mountain rangers, skilled in recon service and survival, which are employed to hunt the boeviks (insurgents, gunmen), are Spetsnaz. Some heavily armed bullies with RPGs and flamethrowers used to wipe away insurgents infesting some building in a town in Chechenia are also called Spetsnaz.
Speaking of SAS and Navy Seals, the only parralel to them is FSB Spetsnaz, namely teams Alpha, Pennant and Knight (Alfa, Vympel, Vityaz). And the only surviving abbreviation to Otryady Osobogo Naznacheniya is now Spetsnaz, Osnaz being an obsolete word.
And yes, teams Alpha and the rest are deemed to be the best in the world as it comes to their wilderness survival skills, physical training and mobility but there's no reason to believe that they're much better than SAS and SEALs in stealth and combat.
Also those teams use a limited amount of weaponry that is superior even to USA's best guns, but that still doesn't make them 'the best'
As for the physical and psychological training of Alpha, Pennant and other FSB Spets teams, it's extremely enduring and is aimed at eliminating almost everything human, making a human into a ruthless killer. One of the excercises consists of bashing a living rabbit against a wall so it's killed in a single blow and then crushing its spinal cord with soldier's own teeth so that the head is separated from the body (didn't dare typing 'biting off the rabbit's head'), then drinking most of the rabbit's blood before it's spilt on the ground from the rabbit's neck. This excersise is designed both to teach the novices to kill living things without hesitation and clench their thirst if there's no clear water supply around but they happen to trap a rabbit or a dog. This is not bulls**t, and doesn't come from tabloids. It's a very well-known Spetsnaz training practice in our country. They are taught 'You are not a human now but a military unit designed to kill things, and if a military unit has to be destroyed in combat there's no way round.'
~~11.11.2006 14:14 McBak~~
- I can agree with you in some terms. In some couldn't.First/ you re right for shure that Spetsnaz are not actualy "the best". But should we talk, and compare any special forces at all? The are SPECIAL FORSES. The couldn't be compared! It's a profession.Second. When you say: "bashing aliving rabbit against a wall so it's killed in a single blow and then crushing its spinal cord with soldier's own teeth so that the head is separated from the body" and other words I want to ask you: what are your sources. For example I have read books of V. Suvorov too and there were words about that GRU spetsnaz for example killed a dog for that. But HOW DO YOU KNOW? What are the sources. And you shouldn't say that they are more cruel than other special forces. for example nobody knows somehow what are trainings of special forses of Franch Legion for exanmple, or USA rangers or SEALs. How do ou know that they are "not so cruel" as Specnaz for example. In my opinion every Special forces have extremly hard trainings. Not more or les harder or easier.~~19.04.2007 00:06 Yegor Chernyshev~~
-
- Vityaz it`s a VV spetsnaz (internal affairs) not FSB. And also - IMHO the best spetsnaz (and the SF) units were Vympel of Soviet era (the elite diversants with excellent espionage training, not that CT unit "among others") and Spetnaz GRU GSh.
[edit] Special purpose regiments
Due to the multy-significance of that term I'd like to offer some changes in the article.
First. As it seems the term "Spetsnaz" used for every special purposed unit in russia, and its a populized term. Therefore we should write here about different types and kinds of russian special forces, that are exist on Russian terretory. And the main accent of the article should mark the collective meaning of that word. Than we should separate on special regiment from another in the article. The suggestion is to wite a typology of special units.
Second. In my mind the most exact head of the article sounds like "Rusian special purpose units" or "Russian special purpose regiments" or "Russian special force regiments". And the artices "Specnaz" and "Spetsnaz" should redirect users here.
If nobody minds. I'll do that changes. And, please, type your opinion, it's very interesting.
~~Yegor Chernyshev 19:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)~~
[edit] Information about specific Spetsnaz units
Although it was unrefernced, I do not think it was proper to delete all this information. Why not mark this as [citation needed] and wait a little?Biophys (talk) 16:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
