Talk:Shogi

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[edit] Shogi

I've never played Shogi, nor seen it played, and have only a single book on it (Shogi: Japan's Game Of Strategy by Trevor Leggett). If anyone knows better, please correct any errors found in this article. -- Bignose

The game pieces are marked with Japanese characters; if someone could add the Unicode characters to this article this would be a great help. -- Bignose

Hi Bignose, thanks for doing the original Shogi page -- but whoever told you that the character for a non-promoted piece and the promoted version are the same never saw a japanese shogi set! Follow the link I put in the text... they're different. -- NickelKnowledge

chinese korean and japanese chess are not from indian.

Please explain. Cite sources saying they originated independently from the Indian variant. --129.241.103.90 10:36, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I edited the article a bit, including the Japanese, added a couple game screenshots, some very basic strategy including the Yagura defense, etc. Sorry, 'anonymous' was me; I got signed out while editing. Hope these are all improvements and that I didn't introduce any errors.

Do we still need the Unicode values, now that Japanese can be entered directly into the edit window? It would be nice to get rid of them.

By the way, Bignose, this is a very fun game. I quickly came to prefer it over Western chess, not that I'm very good at either at either of them! kwami 11:24, 2005 July 16 (UTC)

nice tutorial. very, very useful Lord Stu 02:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Professional Players

The current article says The latest, most famous champion, Yoshiharu Habu, is said to earn more than 1,000,000$ each year. Are those US dollars? If so, then it should be $1,000,000. If not, then someone please note the currency.

Ah, I have done many spelling mistakes so far, but this one might be a bit serious. Of course they're US dollars. I've corrected it. Thank you. G.P. 11 January 2006

Professional title matches are broadcasted online by official sponsors. Most of the contents are in the Japanese language, but I think reenactment of matches by Java script are acceptable to everyone. So I would like to make some external links to them, but I don't know how they should be made, and if they should be made or not. I'm also worried that this may have little to do with shogi itself. How do you think?
( I've collected and kept them in my user page. Please check it if you are interested. ) Goblin princess 22:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that's an excellent idea, GP. It would be nice if we could embed the javascript in an English-language environment, so as not to intimidate people, but at least the first game on your list was simple enough to browse without any knowledge of Japanese.

And of course this has everything to do with shogi! The challenge will be to find a professional match that illustrates points that even a novice can understand. I'm not sure if that's possible, but if it is we could have an analysis of why certain moves are important. For example, in that first game[1], move 82, Black's dragon horse is under attack. Black responds by attacking a gold with a pawn, and White defends that, rather than taking the horse. We could discuss why having a pawn break through the king's line is a more serious matter that capturing the most powerful piece on the board.

(PS. The phrase is "what do you think?") kwami 01:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I just looked at that game for a brief glimpse to see what a normal game can look like. I was very confused about one thing though: Check out move #55. Black moves his bishop to 4-6 (6 being the Japanese numeral) and gets a Dragon Horse! That square is clearly NOT in the promotion zone. Was that even a legal promotion? The same thing happens in move #103 where he gets a Dragon King... --Sivak 06:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Both start within the promotion zone: squares 7III and 8I, respectively. Any move that crosses the promotion zone in any way is a promotable move. It doesn't have to be entirely within the zone. kwami 18:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I see... The way I read it is the piece still had to remain in the promotion zone upon moving to be allowed to promote. That actually makes a bishop and rook drop potentially even more deadly.

The right place for a promoted rook (Dragon King) is virtually always in the opponent's camp (thus in the promotion zone), whereas the promoted bishop (Horse) is a particularly strong piece for defensive purposes in your own camp although it is also used for attack. Cogitans 21:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's take another example: If a silver was on row 6, moved to row 7 (the start of promotion zone), decided NOT to promote, then the opponent makes his move... Now: the Silver on row 7 moves BACK to row 6 it could still promote right then and there? --Sivak 20:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes it can. Any move into, out of, or wholy within the zone can end in promotion. The only exceptions are the king, gold general, drops and pieces that are already promoted. A silver general can be droped on row seven, on the next turn it can move to row six and promote! JTTyler 23:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question on drops

This is minor, but is a pawn allowed to be dropped on a player's first or second row? I was curious if this is legal to do. I know the restriction rules are in play, i.e. a pawn not being able to be in the same file as another pawn, but was just curoius about this. --Sivak 05:07, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Not minor when you're in a game! I believe it's legal. It's a common defence when someone breaks behind your lines. kwami 06:53, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Second question about pawns

One other question: I know it's illegal to drop a pawn to immediately give checkmate to the enemy king, but is it legal if an unpromoted pawn is ALREADY on the board to move it forward and give checkmate that way?

Yes. --Zundark 07:43, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] minor mistake

"The Chinese characters have been deterred many people who are not familiar with them from learning shogi."

was not worded properly so I replaced it by this one

"The Chinese characters (kanji) have deterred many people who are not familiar with them from learning shogi."

[edit] Getting the article featured...

Well, I think it would be possible to get Shogi to be a featured article. What does the public think it needs? I personally think maybe an extra photo or two of real Shogi sets might help. I was thinking of maybe taking a photo of my set to show the different piece sizes and maybe we could add images of the pieces to their respective place in the move explanation.

Just some toughts. --Sivak 21:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

How about telling something about shogi professionals, computer shogi, etc.? See articles for Chess and Go for reference, they are both featured articles. -- someone

How about a photo of people actually playing shogi? The game is nothing without the people who play it, and they've been left out. kwami 00:53, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you HAVE any photos? I actually have yet to play this game against someone... I've been playing the game of Go a bit though. --Sivak 06:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, I have some photos of Western (more specifically Norwegian) amateur players in action during a fairly recent championship. Cogitans 21:03, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oushou vs. Gyokushou

This is a point worthy of bringing a modicum of attention to. There are indeed two kinds of kings (or "generals", disregarding the gold and silver) that you may find in a Shogi set, in their calligraphy only distinguished by the presence or absence of a single stroke. It is important to note that a set (or even Shogi diagram) does not necessarily consist of one of each. It is however a tradition of professional title matches for there to be a difference and for the holder to take the oushou (王) while the challenger takes the gyokushou (玉). Amateur practice is more likely to vary. Please note that this has nothing to do with being "Black" (sente, 先手, first to move) or "White" (gote, 後手, second to move). When a decision process for that is needed, "furigoma" (振り駒) i.e. a pawn toss is used. Cogitans 01:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Noted. kwami 08:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures of the individual pieces

I know they've been up for a while, but I think it's neat that there are some pictures of real pieces and such. I noticed with the set shown that the promotion side is also in black, though with a more "stylistic" looking Kanji. I think I remember hearing it being Japanese calligraphy. Anyway, I was wondering if we could add a note about that in the article? Some sets use red for promoted pieces, but some don't. Mine doesn't use red either. --Sivak 05:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not traditional to use sets with red for promoted pieces, I have never seen it in professional use. Cogitans 12:22, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

Some discussion of the history of shogi would be much appreciated! I'd contribute, but unfortunately all I know about shogi I learned from Wikipedia :) Ckerr 13:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You might make a translation request of ja:将棋#.E6.B2.BF.E9.9D.A9 -- JHunterJ 14:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Internationalized Shogi

Please take a look at my website: The Elephant Chess Club scroll down webpage to see internationalized shogi set

I learned to play shogi when I lived in Japan from 1990-1994. I really enjoy playing, and tried to teach people the game when I returned to the States. Unfortunately, the Japanese writing was too intimidating for most people. I redesigned the shogi playing pieces so that they are identified with designs and symbols. Of course, the playing pieces are double-sided. The reverse sides have the color red included to indicate promotion.

Please let me know what you think.

Thank you, Michael

"The Chinese characters (kanji) have deterred many people who are not familiar with them from learning shogi."

“Westernized” shogi sets have been available in the U.S. for some time – I purchased one at least 15 years ago. Instead of kanji, the pieces have a letter from the Latin alphabet ('P' for pawn, 'K' for King, 'L' for lance, etc.) Each piece also has a diagram of how it can move. It has been said that, in Japan, such a set is regarded as “suitable for children.” SlowJog 00:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. I think that the symbols on the internationalized version of shogi (shown on website above) are intuitive and create a shogi set which is cognitively accessible in the same way as Western chess and more naturally understood as opposed to using a more direct means of marking the pieces, such as with letters or arrows. Here is an introduction to play on YouTube. Shogi Lesson #1 ElephantChess (talk) 22:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spread Outside Japan

The article states that one of the reasons the game of go spread outside of Japan more than shogi did is that it originated in China. My understanding of the history of go in the U.S. is that although it did originate in China, go came to the U.S. primarily through contact with Japan. SlowJog 00:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the main reason is that shogi pieces use ideographs while go stones are intuitive black and white. --72.75.61.27 07:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Of the given comparisons between go and shogi as reasons for the difference in the spread of the two games outside of Japan, I agree with all the reasons except for one about the country of origin. SlowJog 00:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with SlowJog, the fact that Go originated in China is not a factor. Go spread to the West from Japan anyway (that's why we use the Japanese term Go and not the Chinese Weiqi). /David (21st of May 2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.230.104 (talk) 20:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SPAM

So, I think most of these external links fall under at least one of the categories of things to normally avoid under WP:EL. I don't want to just go ahead and delete them all, but are there any that anyone feels really strongly should stay? --Selket ^Talk 20:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed The Links

Someone removed some pretty useful links.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.51.49.118 (talk) 04:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Computer Shogi

What about adding some or all of these links:

Gnu Shogi (available for most LINUX distros): http://directory.fsf.org/games/gnushogi.html
Xshogi - graphical interface to Gnu Shogi: http://directory.fsf.org/xshogi.html
Spear - Windows program with game DB and game engine; runs under Linux with Wine: http://gamelab.yz.yamagata-u.ac.jp/SHOGI/SPEAR/spearmain.html

Computer Shogi - english version of a japanese web site about computer shogi: http://www.computer-shogi.org/index_e.html

Johann Petrak 09:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ryuo champion Watanabe played Bonanza in 2007

The wikipedia article says “Watanabe commented after the game that he should have lost if Bonanza had played a defensive move before entering the endgame”. I read the translated comments of Watanabe on shogi-l. I did not read this comment. What is the source of this Watanabe comment?

The wikipedia article says the computer has an “awesome endgame ability”. Watanabe said the opposite “I learned from this game is that endgame technique apart from tsumi is still a challenge for the computer.”

The wikipedia article says “This game can be looked at as a clear example that computer Shogi, although still not perfect, has reached top pro level”. Watanabe said, “they are getting to be a match for professionals” which are much weaker than top pro level.

This wikipedia paragraph in the shogi article exaggerates the strength of computer shogi. Mschribr 18:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC) Mark Schreiber

[edit] Openings

In the strategy section, it talks about rook and bishop openings. I've read that the openings are usually classified as static rook, ranging rook and double ranging rook. Could anyone who knows more about this clarify this?AbcXyz 16:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The rook is the most powerful piece, generally used to support an attack from behind and then move in. If left where it is at setup, you have a static rook opening. If you move the rook over to the left to support an attack there, that's a ranging rook opening. I have no idea what a double ranging rook is, since you only have one. kwami 05:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Each side can broadly be static rook (2 file) or ranging rook (files 5-8). A more accurate definition is where the rook is with respect to the king. If both sides use a ranging rook, it's called a double ranging rook, so the game openings can be double-static, double-ranging or static-versus-ranging. The article doesn't say 'double ranging rook', but is it clear? Adam1729 00:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hoax

Is this a real game? Looks like a hoax to me.... Doctorfluffy 17:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is a real game. Shogi and Chess are descendants of the same ancestor from India, Chaturanga. — Val42 03:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh ok. That explains that. It looked to me like someone just took chess and made it weirder and then made this article. You never can tell with so many vandals around this place. D-Fluff has had E-Nuff 04:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

How about Jetan? SlowJog (talk) 01:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't have the book handy, but if my memory serves me well, John Fairbairn wrote of Shogi that the Japanese have changed chess "until it became the most fiendishly complex game any normal person might still be interested in playing." SlowJog (talk) 02:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Japan is a hoax. A place where people eat raw fish and seaweed and like it while watching their favorite sport of two fat guys in butt-exposing shorts stomping their feet and bumping into each other?? Get real. Readin (talk) 03:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shikamaru Nara

Can someone please put a Shogi in pop culture here, so i can read about how well Shikamaru Nara can play it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.97.82 (talk) 09:41, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wording?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogi#Computer_shogi "In 2005, the Japan Shogi Association sent a message to professional shogi players and women professionals, ..." Does that mean that there are no women professional shogi players? Jasonkhanlar (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not working link

The link showing the two ways to set up shogi doesn't work. I don't know how to fix this, I just thought I should point it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.189.123 (talk) 06:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

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