Talk:Aeneas

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A Winner of the August 2004 West Dakota Prize This entry has won the West Dakota Prize for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence.

Contents 1 Cleanup & expansion 2 Dardains = Troyans 3 Removed material 4 His mother's name 5 Legendary role? 6 Relationship to Priam (vandalism?) 7 Names of deities 8 Dutiful Aeneas - should this be included? 9 The Corresponding Indian Legend

[edit] Cleanup & expansion

I think this article could use a clean up and perhaps a combining of some information with that of Aeneid

[edit] Dardains = Troyans

The Dardains are in fact the troyans, Dardano is consideres the first father of the troyans sometimes greeks used the name of the founder to name the citicens, even tougth the founder's name is not the same as the city (for example Tebes wich founder is cadmus, people were often called cadmeus ot Atenas wich it's founder was cecrope)

[edit] Removed material

I removed wife Creusa from the list of his companions because as I recall she never made it out of Troy alive.

I removed (because not about Aeneas except tangentially): On the coast of Lucania, Aeneas' helmsman, Palinurus, fell asleep and dropped into the water. He swam to shore but was killed by the Lucanians. Mt. Palinuro is named after him.

I removed that Mars was the father of Romulus and Remus (should be in their article).

RJFJR 03:05, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] His mother's name

shouldnt somebody decide whether his mother is aphrodite or venus?

or are they the same person?

Venus is her Latin name, Aphrodite the Greek one.

[edit] Legendary role?

The article states that "[he] founded of the city that would one day become Rome". I thought he founded the Roman people, and that Romulus and Remus founded the city itself, or am I being silly? Are the two legends even compatable? --Oldak Quill 16:43, 1 Jun 2005 (UT

Aeneas merged with the Latin race and Romulus and Remus would later descend from him. --Must WIN 01:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The article cares a lot about the myths but not says the archeological findings of the story and the real sources. Enea was something more than the historians of the greek histroy wants to clame. The italian sources and many others try to explain in detals what enea did in after the fall of Troy.

If you have the "Italian sources," by all means, put the information in. That's what Wiki is for. WBardwin 23:33, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Relationship to Priam (vandalism?)

A vandal made this change to the article. The article now says Aeneas is the cousin of Priam (in the first paragraph) and the son of Priam (in the second paragraph). Interestingly, the Priam article makes no mention of Aeneas. Can someone resolve this? -- Cjensen 22:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Names of deities

This article mixes use of Greek and Roman names, even using multiple names for single deities(i.e. Venus and Aphrodite; Jupiter and Zeus). Someone should convert all the names to either Greek or Roman counterparts, preferably Roman since Aeneas is more important in their history. (unsigned contribution)

I vote for Greek names, as the story begins with the Iliad. WBardwin 00:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

But the Aeneid uses Roman deities, not Greek. Use whichever deity the original source of the myth used, be it Greek or Roman (or both); Greek and Roman deities are not completely synonymous, that's why the major ones have separate articles. -Silence 00:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It should probably be using Greek names when refering to Aeneas written by the Greeks such as in the Iliad, and using the Latinized names when refering to Virgil or other Latin writers. Not much is written about Aeneas from the Greek perspective (though a lot more could be) in this article so most of the names should be Latinized. By the way shouldn't the accounts of the Greek myth Aeneas and the Latin myth Aeneas be seperated in different sections because they are two seperate mythologies? The stories were written centuries apart and in my opinion Greek Myth should not be thrown in together with Roman Myth as they are two seperate things.

My vote would be in for the Roman names. Certainly, Aeneas is first introduced as a character in The Iliad, but his subsequent exodus from Ilium and founding of a new city in Italy for which he is most famous were parts of Roman mythology. Our primary source for the Aeneas is the national epic of the Roman People, in Latin of course, by Publius Vergilius Maro, and much of what we consider essential parts of Aeneas's story such as his tryst with Dido or rivalry with Turnus were most probably inventions of Vergil himself. Thus, because Aeneas is much more an integral part of Roman mythology, and because our primary source for his story is in Latin, it would certainly make sense that the names the Gods should be in Latin.

--Sleepless Emperor

[edit] Dutiful Aeneas - should this be included?

Er, should it be noted that Aeneas's name in Virgil is often coupled with the adjective pius, which translates as "dutiful Aeneas" or "Aeneas, duty-bound"? And that in the Iliad, he was saved from death-by-Achilles by Neptune, and that the reason given was his 'dutifulness'? It sort of ties into why he would be chosen as a mythological founder of Rome, what with Roman values and stuff like that. 169.229.121.94 04:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit: It's even mentioned in the Aeneid article that, pre-Aeneid, he was known for his 'piety'. It may be mentioned as just a throwaway line there, but, err, shouldn't it at least be mentioned in the article ABOUT SAID AENEAS?! 169.229.121.94 04:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Corresponding Indian Legend

(The following moved from article page for discussion about inclusion. WBardwin 23:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC))

P.Adinaaraayana Swamy, Sree Padma Saakha Vamsa Pradeepika, Dharma Varam, 1968, India): The legend of Sage Bhaavana is preserved in the family books of the weaving caste people among the Andhras in India. Fragments of the legend were said to have been extracted from Markandeya Purana, Brahmanda Purana and Padma Samhita. The following is the selective summary of the legend:

In a town near the hill where the sun sets, there was demon named Kaaluva. He was menacing the Devas (divine people). He was torturing the pious and raping their women. He was assisted by Moolaka, another demon. Further, the Devas were suffering due to lack of woven clothing and a proper religion. When Devas prayed god, they were told that a man will soon be born in his image and he will come to their land to help them. Sage Maarkandeya begot two sons and the younger one was named Bhaavana. A prophecy was given that Bhaavana would kill the enemies of his brother. Bhaavana became proficient in the arts of war and also in the religious knowledge. He vowed to offer a tiger skin to god. One day, the Devas appeared to him (probably in a dream) and told him that he was destined to reach the land of Devas to get them rid of the demons and to teach them weaving and religion. A sage told Bhaavana that he has to go to a land where the daughter of Sun has kept tigers in captivity, and that she would marry him. Bhaavana wandered over seven seas and many lands in search of tigers. Finally, he reached a land called Arca and met the daughter of Sun named Bhadra. Her body was bright like thunder bolt and her eyes resembled petals of a blue lotus. Earlier, a sage told her mother that a hero would come to their land and marry her daughter. Bhadra recognized in Bhaavana the man who was to become her husband. Bhaavana asked her to give him a tiger. She told that she would give one of her tigers if he would mary her. He told her that he has to fulfill his vow first. He took the tiger and left. After some time, Bhadra has sent two messengers to Bhaavana that he should return to her without further delay. Bhaavana goes to her land accompanied by his people. The marriage of Bhaavana and Bhadra was performed on a grand scale. Kaaluva was told that the Devas were leading a happy life after being taught weaving and religion by Bhaavana. The demon challenged the bravery of Bhaavana and declared war. The warriors of Kaaluva could not stand against Bhaavana and his people, and started fleeing from the battle field. Kaaluva tried to stop them threatening death to those who flee. Bhaavana tried to kill Kaaluva four times in duel fights, but he escaped death every time. A fierce battle ensued and Bhaavana was wounded by Kaaluva. Goddess Rama, foremother of Bhaavana, brought ambrosia and cured his wound. Bhaavana travelled to a distant land for war alliance with his brother. Many gods presented divine weapons to Bhaavana. Bhadra entered the battle field with a retinue of tigers. Bhaavana hurled his divine weapon and killed Kaaluva. Hearing the news, demon Moolaka came to the battle field and soon fell at the hands of Bhaavana. Bhaavana became the deified ancestor of weaving castes in the Andhras.

3. Comparison of the two legends History says that Gauls marched against Rome and threatened to destroy it unless all the women and girls were turned over to them. The Indian legend probably refers to a similar incident which happened in remote past. The legend appears to belong to the period when vowels did not exist in script. Even now, Hebrew and a few other languages do not have vowels in their scripts. Further, the Etymologists do not consider vowels while investigating phonetic affinities between words of different languages. The name of the hero in the Indian legend is Bhaavana in Sanskrit and Baapaniaya in Telugu. The Telugu name may have been interpreted in the ancient Italian manuscripts as Baba Aaniaya. The word Baba is cognate with Papa in European languages and Baabu ('father') in Telugu. Aeneas was referred to as father Aeneas at some places in the Aeneid (5.348). Paphean was an epithet of Venus because she possesses Mount Paphus. The name Baapaniya may also have been interpreted as Paphean Aeneas. Annamiaya and Nanniaya ware old Telugu names in historic times. Aaniah could have been an ancient Telugu name. Bhaavana was born to a goddess, who was the daughter of a god, by a sage on the peaks of Himalayas with their many wooded folds. Similarly, Aeneas was born to a goddess by a mortal man on the peaks of Idalium with its many wooded folds. He is said to have started from the Troy city. If ancient Latin writers were to come across an Indian city name like Tri City (Tripura) or Dhaara City of the ancient legends, they may have interpreted the same as Troy. Further, the text of the Aeneid specifically states that the ambassadors of Aeneas went to the court of Latinus and introduced themselves as dwellers of a tropical country about the equator which was once the greatest empire the sun could see as it travelled from the very east of the sky (7.217-227). The culture of India has spread to most of the countries in the East since ancient times. Herodotos (3.98) wrote that the Indians lived the farthest towards the east and the sunrise, of all the inhabitants of Asia. Many other classical Greek texts depict India as the eastern most country of the inhabitable world. Their writings were probably efforts in interpreting some ancient Indian sources which wrote of India as the eastern most country inhabited by the Indo-European race. The name Bharata Khanda (continent of Bharata) of the Puranas represents this concept to indicate the land between Bhaaratam (India) in the east and Britain in the west; the name Bharata Varsha (sub-continent of Bharata) represents the land of Indo-Europeans. The racial integrity of the Indo-Europeans was known to Indians since ancient times.

In the family books, Bhadra has many names. Laavanya Lata is one given in the list of her names. The name Lavinia daughter of Latinus of the ancient Italian legends may obviously have been interpreted as Lavanya Lata by the ancient Indians. The name Turunus of the Aeneid is cognate with Tarunum ('time') in Telugu. The name Kaaluva of the Indian legend is cognate with Kaalam which also means 'time' in Telugu. The name Daunus, father of Turnus, is cognate with Danuja which means 'demon' in Telugu and Sanskrit. Ancient Indians may have inverted the consonants 'n' and 't' in the name Mezentius of the ancient Italian legend and interpreted it to be Mazza Danuja. In Telugu and Sanskrit, Mazza means 'bone marrow'. The name Moolaka of the Indian legend is cognate with Moolaga which also means 'bone marrow' in Telugu. The town where Bhaavana met Bhadra was called Arca in the Indian legend, which is cognate with Arx - the ancient citadel of Rome. The Italian towns which have names phonetically similar to Arca are Arco near lake Garda and Aricia near Rome. Arca is an epithet of Sun in Telugu and Sanskrit. Many fairy tales speak of west as the home of Sun where he rests for the night. The same thing is expressed by the sentence in the Indian legend which says that in a town near 'the hill where the sun sets', the demon Kaaluva lives, and thus indicates the land to be Europe. Bhdra was said to be the daughter of Sun which may also mean that she was a princess of solar dynasty. Latinus was said to have descended through Circe, daughter of the Sun. The name 'Circe' is cognate with 'Surya' which means 'Sun' in Telugu and Sanskrit. King Latinus was said to wear on his head a coronet of twelve gold rays as an emblem of his ancestor the Sun (12.163-164). The Hundu astrology says that the Sun's path along the zodiac should be devided into 12 regions called the signs, and the Sun is exalted in the first sign of the zodiac which represents the top of the head in the human body. In medieval Europe, some kings like Louis the XIV of France claimed that they were sun kings because the Sun god granted them their position. The king's ritualistic waking up and retiring to bed were attended by the nobility to draw a parallel with the rising and setting of the sun. A similar custom may have existed in ancient Italy. Ancient Greek legends speak of some royal families and warrior chiefs of Europe wearing feline skins as a mark of nobility. Bhaavana may have wandered in search of his ancestors whose chiefs were wearing feline skins. Tiger skins are considered holy in some families of Andhras even today. The sons of Bhaavana were said to have become sages and priests. Aeneid says that the son of Aeneas was a priest clothed in immaculate vestments (12.168). Bhaavana became the deified ancestor of weaving castes among the Andhras. Aeneas was said to have been regarded as a god after his death and was given the tittle 'Iuppiter Indiges' (Gray 1916:306); the word 'Indiges' probably suggests his Indian origin. Brutus is reputed to be the first king and founder of Briton. He is known to be the great-grand son of Aeneas. The name Brutus is cognate with Bhaarata who was said to be one of the decendants of Bhaavana. The other decendants of Bhaavana were said to have been sent to many countries in the world. Iulus was the son of Aeneas, and through him by that name the gens Julii traced its descent. The descendants of Bhaavana were called by the generic name Saali, a name cognate with Julii, and their sub-divisions at present are Padma Saali, Pattu Saali and Saali castes.

"Connected with the cult of Aeneas was that of Anna Perenna. When the plebians took refuge on the Mons Sacer, she brought them food to eat in the guise of an old woman. Annona was the goddess who was prayed to have abundance in grain." (Larousse 1968:215). In India, Goddess Anna Poorna is peculiar to the Andhras. Many Andhra women are named after this goddess. The name is rarely heard outside Andhra Pradesh. A legend connected to her says that once upon a time in remote antiquity there was famine in the regions around Varanasi and food became scarce. Goddess Parvati came in the guise of an old woman named Anna Poorna and gave food to the people who took up residence in the holy temple city Varanasi. Andhras pray to goddess Anna Poorna to give abundance in grain. The name Annona is cognate with Annam (cooked rice) in Telugu.

Many cognate words have formed due to the interaction in ancient times. Some are given below. The second one is a Telugu word having the same meaning which is being used for more than a 1000 years:

attic - attaca. asset - aasti. beat - baadu. boat - padava. bore - boriya. boy - abbayi. cavity - guvta. cattle - goddulu. cheek - chekku. chin - chunbu. cut - kota. dull - deela. elope - lepuka. fat - boddu. foundation - punaadi. gale - gaali. lace - allica. link - lanke. mask - musugu. master - mestri. mead - metha. mouth - moothi. mud - matti. murky - muriki. nerve - narav. oath - ottu. pale - paali. pan - penam. pap - pappa. piece - pisaru. put - pettu. site - chotu. short - chiruta. show - choopu. slice - cheelchu. suck - cheeku. surprise - achcheraparachu. sweat - chewata. theft - thoepidi thick - dukka. thread - thraadu. value - viluva. veil - valle. vomit - vaamthi. upon - paina. with - waththa. wonder - winta. yean - yeenu.

References: W.Warde Fowler, The Religious Experience of the Roman People, Macmillan & Co., London, 1933. L.H.Gray (Ed.), The Mythology of All Races, Vol. 1, Marshall Jones Co., Boston,1916. New Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology, Hamlyn, London, 1968.